Outerra forum
Anteworld - Outerra Game => Tech demo, support, updates => Topic started by: [deleted] on March 14, 2012, 09:49:04 am
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Well, it's the time to tell it (no one noticed it ?!)
With the keyboard the truck is completely uncontrollable (way too slow to turn and to return to normal position, I go out of the roads too many times).
Then yesterday I thought of using the joystick with it, and magic ! Now the truck is way too fast to turn :D Kinda better (weird isn't it ?), even if it's a shame to drive a truck with the joystick.
I don't have a steering wheel, so, maybe you could make it faster to return to normal position ? If I go left too much, then it takes a lot of time to make it go forward.
This is all.
P.S. really no one noticed it or you all have a steering wheel ?
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It has been brought up sometime during the closed beta test.
Btw, you can also use a gamepad (like Xbox 360 pc for example).
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I use a wheel but also have the keys bound. The keys are really really slow but so is my 900° of steering rotation.
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And who hasn't got any controller, joystick, gamepad (yes, I have the gamepad btw) how will be playing it ? With the weird keyboard system ? You have to think at every possibility if you really want to promote this game/engine !!!
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I tried different kinds of controllers and I am still not very satisfied. At first my Logitech Force 3D Pro ... even small steering makes the truck go crazy. Then I downloaded some really cool Software so I was able to use my PS3-Gamecontroller on my PC ... worked well but the steering problem that secret has described remains the same.
The steering with keyboard felt in some way good and felt like the steering in Armed Assault ... but we are here to improve these things. So here are my suggestions ...
First of all and very important is a DEADZONE. Some Sticks are really nervous in the central area so a user defined deadzone is needed. Also some other user defined settings could help to improve the steering of vehicles.
User defined steering curves and saturation settings could be helpful. And to go one step further it would be great that every user can define steering settings like the buttons now for every vehicle seperatly. But not only for a different kind of vehicle like a plane or a heli I mean for every single vehicle. I know one game where you can do it and I hope more will follow!
Hope you can understand what I mean ...
Greetz Oldie
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I think so that "wheel rotation smoothing" should be disabled when using gamepad or wheel. And should be faster when using keyboard. That's my opinion.
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Well, I can boost the steering speed of the truck, that's no problem. But when I look at it now, and realize that I'm steering a heavy truck, I'm not sure if steering much faster would be really realistic.
The steering speed now depends on vehicle speed, it's harder to turn the wheel when you are going fast. So there are two coefficients - the steering speed at vehicle speed=0, and the reduction coefficient.
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But unlike most games, when you let go of the turn key, the wheel takes its sweet time to come back to neutral, causing it to be very hard to steer at decent speeds. When I let go, I expect to go straight almost immediately, but instead I keep turning.
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That is the problem when your not ready for SIMULATION! Instant return to center would be terrible. Maybe what your expecting.. But not akin to proper simulation....
I wonder if angrypig can make it so you can steer by holding a modifier and moving your mouse around in a steering wheel motion on your desk? Wonder how accurate that would be. Certainly more realistic than keys.
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oh god please don't make this into a fail of a game like city bus simulator.....have a hardcore nerd setup and a gamer setup for all cars/planes/ships or this could be a very niche game ie:- sod all sales. personally i want to be able to play with keyboard/mouse i don't want to be swapping controllers every time i use something different. games tend to do best if they use wheels for driving games, joysticks for flight sims, pad for platform games and keyboard/mouse for first person games(regardless of loads of console players on fps games, pit them against a keyboard/mouse and they die die die without autoaim). anterra would be a pain in the arse to play with joystick never-mind a wheel given that you go around on foot. the mouse steering is a good plan, i have played a few games over the years that have used it well.
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I have a keyboard, mouse, Wheel, Three pedals, Custom Six speed shifter AND a joystick.. All accessible all the time and all bound to do SOMETHING in outerra.
You know.. the game steel battalion came with a custom controller.. Why not outerra?
(http://www.toplessrobot.com/sb.jpg)
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You might remember my contribution here : http://www.outerra.com/forum/index.php?topic=734.15 (http://www.outerra.com/forum/index.php?topic=734.15) Assigning and calibrating control axes is a major issue in any simulator and should not be underestimated. But it needs a general philosophy behind and not just a bit of nit-picking on one single axis... ;D
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Well, I can boost the steering speed of the truck, that's no problem. But when I look at it now, and realize that I'm steering a heavy truck, I'm not sure if steering much faster would be really realistic.
The steering speed now depends on vehicle speed, it's harder to turn the wheel when you are going fast. So there are two coefficients - the steering speed at vehicle speed=0, and the reduction coefficient.
But when I use a Joystick or pad it seems more easy to turn on fast speeds ... with keyboard it isn't possible that way. And btw ... the keyboard feels until now more realistic but it is very hard to keep a line in a long curve. But thats normal.
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Perhaps they can make it so a device can be identified as a joystick or gamepad analog Vs a wheel. That way you can push the thumb stick all the way and it won't just insta-turn like crazy. Sort of a built in lag feature but still analog controlled for finite adjustment.
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ZeosPantera, Where's the steering wheel and gear shifter? Vehicles with manual steering usually auto-center when you let go of the steering wheel. I don't think that vehicles with power steering auto-center.
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...I don't think that vehicles with power steering auto-center.
Oh yess, they do, be sure... :D I wouldn't know of ANY of my cars used throughout my life (including trucks) that wouldn't "auto-center". Just to make sure: of course it is not an absolutely accurate auto-centering as it is dependend on so many factors like proper suspension geometry, roll-friction, slant, speed etc.
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Couldn't you just make so that you can choose between the sim-steering and some arcady steering where it responds immediately?
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ZeosPantera, Where's the steering wheel and gear shifter? Vehicles with manual steering usually auto-center when you let go of the steering wheel. I don't think that vehicles with power steering auto-center.
Permanently Wood Screwed into my desk and attached to my chair. [/hardcore]
What makes a vehicle auto-center is the physical caster on the suspension components.
Like this (http://www.casterwheelsco.com/upload/middle/Stem_Caster_Wheel_282_0_1300073118.jpg)
But here (http://image.circletrack.com/f/9408150/ctrp_0801_02_z+caster_and_camber+diagram.jpg)
The wheels on all vehicles are setup with a slight tilt between the top and bottom yolk putting either the top or bottom further forward causing the front wheels to drag slightly behind the attachment point. Having both the left and right do this at the same time makes the steering wheel center. Pulling harder as you go faster.
Couldn't you just make so that you can choose between the sim-steering and some arcady steering where it responds immediately?
Yes and no. There just needs to be more options like digital steering rates speed curves like a race sim (rFactor or RichardBurns have very good keyboard options). The overall point however would be to keep keyboarders at a slight disadvantage not having the precision of a full wheel and pedals. If you make the overall physics arcady there will be no advantage to using this platform as a sim.
I'm no flight simmer but I want to learn to fly the heli and Cessna using the techniques required by real planes. Once the driving controls are better oriented I hope everyone else will feel the same about the ground vehicles.
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same goes for the aircraft. options for simple controls and simplified physics.
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could make it so when no turning key is pressed and truck is going forward it slowly re-centres. This would be realistic enough for keyboard. Perhaps some options in the menu in slider form to allow people to adjust steering and control speed responses?
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If you make the overall physics arcady there will be no advantage to using this platform as a sim.
Dood, this is the Anteworld section of the board not the Outerra engine section. Agree that they should go the whole hog with the outerra engine but not the anteworld game.
if players are having to swap controllers all the time to play the game it will get very tiresome. it's one thing to be loading a game then using 1 type of controller while you play that game and another to be swapping every few mins in game. i personally think it would be a pain in the arse to be walking around with mouse/keyboard to get into a car and have to clamp my wheel to my desk drive for a few mins then unclamp the wheel so i can comfortably get to the mouse/keyboard.
given the setting of the game also i would think that the tech of driving/flying would be far easier than it is now. much of the stuff simmers love with attention to detail would be computer controlled. with flight all i need is bank left/right, climb, descend, rudder, throttle, landing gear and some snazzy scanning the environment stuff. driving only needs forward, reverse(lol atm), left and right.
with this new engine type the helicopter will become a thing of the past. http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-06/protoype-hovercraft-demonstrates-new-propulsion-system-made-rotating-cylinders (http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-06/protoype-hovercraft-demonstrates-new-propulsion-system-made-rotating-cylinders)
As i have said, this is for anteworld game not the engine as a whole. please put in simplified physics/controls if you want lots and lots of sales.
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I'll put the steering and centering speed options into a config file, so you can find the values that are best for you and then we can change the defaults as well. I'm all for making the keyboard controls more accessible, because the keyboard control is always just some approximation.
And unless there are some artificial helpers, using the keyboard is a penalty in itself. There should be a penalty in arcade mode on vehicles where you have additional stabilizers and such things.
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penalty? err why? using the keyboard and having to tap the keys like mad to get it going round a corner smoothly is enough of a penalty(mouse steering without auto center till your not pressing the modify key/mouse button would be miles better). forcing people by nobbling the keyboard/mouse to go out and buy a wheel/joystick/yoke for a pc game is a bad idea... why would you add more stuff to the sim to make the controls simple? just make a simplified routine you can swap to(says he that can't code). you can remove things from the plane sim and it will fly fine by keyboard. just setting the p-factor to 0 helped so that can be removed for the simple config for a start...
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That's what I said, no? "... using the keyboard is a penalty in itself."
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penalty for additional stabilizers?
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What was meant is that regardless of the controls used, flying a plane or helo in arcade mode, which effectively turns off several real factors and helps the player from junking himself immediately, should give a slight disadvantage.
As in, a 1/20th of the engine's power goes into the extra stabilization and guidance systems (as an example).
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err...why? is that what happens with real helicopter stabilization tech? thought it was a computer calculating and adjusting the fly by wire so it fly's better. a computer can make adjustment far faster than a human so would use less power would it not? same goes for fighters. in fact most fighters would be unflyable if it wasn't for the computer.
what i am saying only applies to anteworld game. with the outerra engine go the whole hog. if you make a flightsim based on the engine people would be mad to buy it and expect keyboard controls. but a first person re-colonization game where you can use many different vehicle types, most of your customers would be keyboard/mouse based i think. can you imagine playing gta with mouse/keyboard/wheel and joystick? would be a right pain in the arse.
rather than add a autotrim routine to the aircraft remove/ignore the things that make it a pain for keyboard like the p-factor and the nose pitching according to engine power(dunno about the helicopter as it just goes mental right away atm). that can be done in the config files you just need to select which set to use in the game menu.
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I can see where Zulu is coming from. Anteworld has sim elements but isn't strictly a sim. I don't think there should be any penalty for players who wish to use "arcady" controls. I think if the option for easy controls isn't there players coming later on (who most likely wont be sim fanatics as we seem to be here already) may get slightly pissed off.
Not everyone who will play Anteworld is a sim fanatic. Some people don't want to spend 10 mins starting up a jet fighter ( like I do :) )
If an important part of the game is getting around by various vehicles then the vehicles should be universally simple to control.
Having said that, there is no reason to not include the option for realistic controls if players want, but it should be optional and not the default.
Personally I can't wait for a proper vehicle sims using Outerra engine, but I think it may be a little over-eager to try and shoe horn them in to Anteworld.
I don't mean to sound negative just putting in my 2 pence.
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Perhaps cameni means that for the sake of keeping players on a similar level when in multiplayer. I agree I that respect. If I want to take the time to race my stimulator vehicle that I set up versus an arcade player, I'd want an advantage of some form on my side.
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I thinkthis issue may be resolved through lots of play testing! ;D ;D ;D
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Perhaps cameni means that for the sake of keeping players on a similar level when in multiplayer. I agree I that respect. If I want to take the time to race my stimulator vehicle that I set up versus an arcade player, I'd want an advantage of some form on my side.
easy to sort out. only allow players with the same type of controls to race. nobbling the key/mouse players for one condition(racing) is stupid and is just asking for complaints/bad reviews
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Be nice to have gearing as well. A game I played recently did this quite well thought was a tank game, check it out T34 Vs Tiger were it had you controlling revs to enter each gear etc.. Was kinda fun and not too hard to grasp.
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Wow, I got this place into a tizzy. Well I will just sit back here and let you people bloody yourselves for my amusement now..
(http://mimg.ugo.com/201103/6/6/9/183966/cuts/robert-baratheon-game-of-thrones-17629743-1280-720_288x288.jpg)
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arrrrrrg! lol. correct me if i'm wrong but anteworld is set 300 years in the future and the colony ship leaves earth in 2100. current projections say that there will be sod all oil left by then. cars will be electric with no need for gears. stupidly they are still using a motor/gearbox and the rest of the drivechain instead of using the electric wheel http://www.e-traction.eu/ (http://www.e-traction.eu/) combined with http://www.chorusmotors.gi/ (http://www.chorusmotors.gi/) tech. so who needs a gearbox wasting energy?
you would think that a colony ship would have the best proven tech available at the time either as hardware or plans for such. look how far we have come in the last hundred years. tech that is just on its way now will be very old news. such as just the other day this http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46721546/ns/technology_and_science-innovation/#.T2XoAtUl6So (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46721546/ns/technology_and_science-innovation/#.T2XoAtUl6So) was revealed. by 2100 that tech will be well and truly sorted. i would imagine that most homes in the first world would have a 3d printer at nano scale or better by 2100.
i do realize that the outerra has already dropped of most if not all of the colonists and hardware but quite a bit would have to remain for repairs to the ship. just as the colony's went silent one by one so to would have earth and the crew would know something was up if not exactly what happened and would have been preparing for some time. they would most likely have some kind of shuttles and survey equipment left along with the machinery to make any item in the databank via some kind of techtree and resource availability. some things you would need on board a ship like this would be 3d printers and cnc lathes just in case any of the ships parts failed and they wouldn't just have one of each, tipple redundancy is the norm for spacecraft and one with as long a mission as this would most likely have more. even if some of them broke they could be repaired by making new parts with the other tools. why would they build petrol powered vehicles when electric(given that they don't find something even better) is simpler and would use less energy to produce?
stop thinking in the past people..."i want a steam powered car with all the leavers i can pull manually and where i have to mine coal for it's firebox" might as well call this minecraft hd :P
went a bit off topic there....hmmm..lol.. anyway...nice keyboard/mouse control with the usual fps cluster around w/a/s/d of keys please. keep all the proper sim stuff in for the few who will want that but make a simplified version without any penalty's for those who don't want to be swapping controllers every 5 mins because they got up/walked to car/drove to aircraft/flew to another place/walked around for a bit :)
/end rant :P
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Eh, we are talking here about simulation of the existing vehicles, not what Anteworld will have. These vehicles are there for you to have some fun, but they are current age models (clearly). Can't really expect Cessna or Apache in 100y :)
But if we are considering Anteworld, there's another aspect that must be looked at. What will be available by 2100 will be largely dependent on existing infrastructure. Colonists, however, have to use limited facilities that a packed colony pod module may come with, and once deployed, the colonists must start gathering resources that can be converted to energy and materials with the facilities at hand. That means a small-scale (initially) mining and biomass gathering to be converted to oil etc.
It will be entirely different thing than the modern age that requires huge infrastructure to be built already, upgraded from the preexisting ones.
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Why that option in world.cfg works only for keyboard? I think so it would be better, to have real and ingame steering wheel synchronized, like in other games (eg. LFS). I know so that's a simulator, so it should be not so easy to drive. But in future adding even very simple FF support (just auto-centering) would fix that :)
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It isn't synchronized for you? That option doesn't make sense for wheels since it defines speeds for discrete input, but for wheels it's synced. If it's not in your setup, it's a bug.
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Yes, it's a bit "laggy". I am using Logitech DFGT.
That's how it looks:
Anteworld and dfgt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlQ2x-KrOeA#ws)
And that's a part of eng.log:
INFO: input device: Driving Force GT
device: INDEV_HID0
handle: 10049
num axis: 4
num pots: 1
usage page: 1
usage: 4
vendor id: 46d
product id: c29a
device id: 89EC8B209ABB0C3F0D8308DA63D4257EBE846CE3
version number: 4902
num buttons: 23
dev elements:
Pot0 physical min: 0 physical max: 315 logical min: 0 logical max: 7 usage: 0x39
Btn0 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn1 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn2 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn3 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn4 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn5 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn6 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn7 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn8 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn9 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn10 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn11 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn12 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn13 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn14 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Btn15 physical min: 0 physical max: 1 logical min: 0 logical max: 1 usage: 0x1
Axis0 physical min: 0 physical max: 16383 logical min: 0 logical max: 16383 usage: 0x30
Axis1 physical min: 0 physical max: 255 logical min: 0 logical max: 255 usage: 0x31
Axis2 physical min: 0 physical max: 255 logical min: 0 logical max: 255 usage: 0x35
Axis3 physical min: 0 physical max: 255 logical min: 0 logical max: 255 usage: 0x32
INFO: Device configuration file "C:\Users\Zgred\Outerra\devs\89EC8B209ABB0C3F0D8308DA63D4257EBE846CE3.cfg" not found using default!
INFO: Adding HID device "Driving Force GT"...
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Yes, it's a bit "laggy". I am using Logitech DFGT.
That's how it looks:
Same on my G27. It is probably just due to the alpha state. Could also be some smoothing left on it even though it is being fed analog.
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Eh, we are talking here about simulation of the existing vehicles, not what Anteworld will have. These vehicles are there for you to have some fun, but they are current age models (clearly). Can't really expect Cessna or Apache in 100y :)
as i say i went a tad off topic there... but the fact remains that atm the controls are geared towards simmers. i personally didn't buy the game because i could fly a plane around. perhaps you should get rid of the anteworld section of the board till your engine is working the way you want it if your not going to start adding/modifying it for the anteworld game and only want us to be testing the outerra engine.
i realize that the control system is probably not at the top of your list atm but if players were starting out on foot and had to walk to their truck with keys then swap to a wheel, drive over to the plane swap back to keys, walk to the plane swap to a joystick/yoke, fly around for a bit and land, swap to keys and walk back to truck, swap to wheel drive home, swap to keys walk into home. it would be a major pain in the ass. anteworld needs a unified nice control system for keyboard/mouse without any silly penalty's. i think the only reason you aren't getting a shed load(dunno how many copies you have sold so far) of complaints is because we can spawn what we like when we like so the above doesn't happen yet.
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Would be nice if the centring speed would slow down as the vehicle slows down, and vis versa.
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as i say i went a tad off topic there... but the fact remains that atm the controls are geared towards simmers. i personally didn't buy the game because i could fly a plane around. perhaps you should get rid of the anteworld section of the board till your engine is working the way you want it if your not going to start adding/modifying it for the anteworld game and only want us to be testing the outerra engine.
Hey, who said we don't want easy keyboard control? I'm tuning it for you, already released a patch etc. Nobody wants you to swap controllers, but it's true that keyboard control is always some kind of approximation, and there will be always someone screaming because of this and that.
And "silly penalties" are part of the gameplay. You can have automated trucks carrying stuff, but if the player takes over, he could be faster. There's a motivation in that.
Now, a player who uses most of the automatic systems that effectively turn off the external effects, so he can put a brick on the pedal and go, would be only as fast as the automatic driver. Regardless of whether he's using a keyboard or a wheel. But is a 5% difference such a big deal for you?
Anyway, it's just an idea. But I can imagine that someone comes wanting auto-aiming so he can just press enter to shoot the Things. Penalty or not?
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ahh... i see what you mean about the penalty's now.
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as for auto aiming.. i would prefer "the hunter" style of gameplay
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truck seems to be behaving better now, ta :) but while messing with the steering/centering values i have noticed something. it looks like during centering the value goes from 100% of the setting to 0 instantly when getting to the center. it feels and looks to snappy no matter what values are in the config. perhaps you could add something to slow down the centering the closer it is to center. so centering max min values in the config would be nice. whack the steering and centering up to .99 to see what i'm on about better. it feels like it hits a brick wall when it gets to the center.
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I can't wait for the truck to have a realistic center of gravity with adjust-ability like this. Nobody will get out alive!