Outerra forum

Outerra Engine => Development screen shots and videos => Topic started by: cameni on February 22, 2013, 05:51:26 am

Title: Random rocks
Post by: cameni on February 22, 2013, 05:51:26 am
Experimenting with rocks semi-randomly placed on the terrain. Just some initial tasting:

(http://i.minus.com/jyXMuo0DwJQzr.jpg) (http://minus.com/lyXMuo0DwJQzr)

(http://i.minus.com/jbcGpxYme5xJfo.jpg) (http://minus.com/lbcGpxYme5xJfo)
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: deathevor on February 22, 2013, 06:14:59 am
Looks great!
Is any data on topology maps (Open street Maps) that shows areas with rocks?
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: christibbs on February 22, 2013, 06:19:52 am
Yeah, it looks nice just don't over use them.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Edding3000 on February 22, 2013, 09:38:09 am
Awesome!  ;D
Though indeed dont overuse the big rocks i guess..

Thinking about it:
You could make this also part of vector data, with a density/size map which specifies the amount and size of the rocks. This would give editors more freedom!
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: RaikoRaufoss on February 22, 2013, 11:10:21 am
Well done! 8)
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: ZeosPantera on February 22, 2013, 01:57:26 pm
Those will certainly make driving vehicles around FAR more interesting.

I don't imagine these could be models (at least the smaller ones) so they could have physics..
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: cameni on February 22, 2013, 02:40:54 pm
Rocks are a part of the terrain ... physics works on them as well.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: ZeosPantera on February 22, 2013, 03:10:39 pm
Hrm. I don't think you get what I was saying.. I meant could the rocks be displaced and roll away. That would require them to be models and not part of the terrain.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: cameni on February 22, 2013, 03:30:35 pm
Yep, not these rocks. These are solidly embedded.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: deathevor on February 22, 2013, 04:23:30 pm
Like this?  ;D

(http://www.flixya.com/files-photo/s/a/m/samsoul-1890567.jpg)
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: KelvinNZ on February 22, 2013, 09:03:13 pm
Nice job Brano!
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: cameni on February 24, 2013, 07:25:13 am
Removing grass "hairs" from smaller rocks, while keeping it on larger ones. Also, more rocks on the slopes near the mountains than on the plains.

(http://i.minus.com/jRxqiUsj1yN54.jpg) (http://minus.com/lRxqiUsj1yN54)

(http://i.minus.com/jbc0Xj6RRBUkfl.jpg) (http://minus.com/lbc0Xj6RRBUkfl)

(http://i.minus.com/jqPmTFkzEJfcm.jpg) (http://minus.com/lqPmTFkzEJfcm)
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Jagerbomber on February 24, 2013, 10:10:30 am
Tree planting?  ;D

Hmm... Getting these terrain changes while also wanting to keep recreating my town is going to be sad and conflicting.... Kind of like Minecraft.  ::)

I wonder... if it would be possible to keep roads and buildings while getting the new updates to the terrain... at the risk of having things get dug into the ground, like what has happened to you guys previously, and have a button/option to reset everything (or everything in a selected area) to the new ground level (align with terrain), if the user chooses to do so.

I guess this next question would actually be a bit of a different story when things are done on multiplayer servers, but would these "rocks" be in consistent locations set in the terrain data (that would have to be downloaded/redownloaded from a server) or are these done randomly by the client (and would only be in those locations on that specific user's client once they have been created)?  I guess I'm just curious if these would be consistent in the terrain download that we've been using (for single player) since it probably just comes down to file sharing overall.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Midviki on February 24, 2013, 11:53:43 am
I wonder... if it would be possible to keep roads and buildings while getting the new updates to the terrain... at the risk of having things get dug into the ground.

As advice it would be nice once in a while to make "backups" on your package and data from the coordinates in that "earth" folder.As for buildings and roads, from what I know roads are "terrain" with a different texture and a bit of heightmap, and they are one with the "terrain".And even if the terrain will modify itself in consequence of the update, the roads I think they are "buggy" only if you stick them in to the ground more than a few hundred meters.So the roads will remain no matter what if you have the backup coordinates ( at least from what I know and experienced before ).And for "buildings" .. buildings are actually = objects, so they will sink ( again, from what I know, maybe in the future with collision they will not ).

And my advice to you @Jagerbomer is to use some road "texture" under the specific buildings as a pavement for the base of the building but as well as a design technique to groom the environment.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: cameni on February 24, 2013, 12:26:19 pm
I wonder... if it would be possible to keep roads and buildings while getting the new updates to the terrain... at the risk of having things get dug into the ground, like what has happened to you guys previously, and have a button/option to reset everything (or everything in a selected area) to the new ground level (align with terrain), if the user chooses to do so.
Right now the buildings are positioned on absolute coordinates, but I want to reference the height to a coarse ground detail level so that they can adapt. But then, they would not adapt to small changes like the rocks.

Quote
I guess this next question would actually be a bit of a different story when things are done on multiplayer servers, but would these "rocks" be in consistent locations set in the terrain data (that would have to be downloaded/redownloaded from a server) or are these done randomly by the client (and would only be in those locations on that specific user's client once they have been created)?  I guess I'm just curious if these would be consistent in the terrain download that we've been using (for single player) since it probably just comes down to file sharing overall.
Well this question pops up every once a while, people expecting that random means a different every place&time. But if you think about it, it would be extremely useless for games and predictability and everything. So, technically it's not random. It's based on probabilistic evaluation of perturbation of completely deterministic data, and it produces the same results regardless of place & time, just as one would expect.

Well, except that it produces slightly different results on ATI because of some numerical differences, but that will be fixed :)
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Jagerbomber on February 24, 2013, 02:40:41 pm
Even though you worded it in a way that no one can understand  :P, I (mostly) know what you're saying because I know that people seem to always think that "procedural generation" means things are randomly done every time and always ask that question out of confusion.

I was just wondering (or making sure) that these rocks were the same as everything else done to the terrain.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Heyworth on February 25, 2013, 12:39:01 pm
Is it possible that this feature could eventually allow for stone walls...
Or would you class walls as separate models?

(http://www.nearhowe.co.uk/images/DavidBarker2.jpg)

(http://www.nearhowe.co.uk/images/DryStoneWall.jpg)
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: ZeosPantera on February 25, 2013, 12:43:48 pm
(http://i5.minus.com/ib1XrkJUuvZGsK.jpg)
(http://i1.minus.com/ibgk9JjnfUEpJ3.jpg)

A few waves breaking on those and they are going to be SWEEEEEET.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Midviki on February 25, 2013, 01:17:00 pm
Is it possible that this feature could eventually allow for stone walls...
Or would you class walls as separate models?

(http://www.nearhowe.co.uk/images/DavidBarker2.jpg)

(http://www.nearhowe.co.uk/images/DryStoneWall.jpg)

You can make those in a 3D modeling program... looking just like those.I'm actually working on something similar like that right now.The only thing is that you need to find the right method that the importer will accept.

But I like the snow to be from the engine... when the weather is very rich in water / snow, it would be nice for everything to have a glassy look from rain and snow to make layers and even melt or turn to ice.That's what should the engine do from my opinion.The stone walls you can make them in a 3D program.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Heyworth on February 25, 2013, 01:30:17 pm
Would it slow the engine down (as a model) compared to 'naturally generated'?
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: ZeosPantera on February 25, 2013, 01:47:12 pm
Having the engine create those walls like it does a road is far more economical and will allow the benefits of snow and biome randomization.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Midviki on February 25, 2013, 03:15:24 pm
Having the engine create those walls like it does a road is far more economical and will allow the benefits of snow and biome randomization.


If you import it as a model, it can have animation and when go trough it with a tank or a vehicle you can have it do animation ( pre-made animation ofc ).And it can shatter in to million pieces as you have you animation made.

But as the engine doing the animation and other stuff... it might get serious on the hardware.And it is a lot of optimization after you manage to succeed such complex operation.

In my opinion I think it is easier to have like 5 animations on a wall, and have a simple collision box depending on the forces that you apply to it by the impact and do it simple.Than tremendous waste of work from the engine developers side.And yes it might help using it in other circumstances.But I still believe it is more efficient to import the wall as a model.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: ZeosPantera on February 25, 2013, 03:25:35 pm
Animations is the last thing I want to see. Too much of that crap in Arma. If I crash through a wall it had better be calculated by physics and shown by modifying the terrain in 3ms like cameni said it would. So having the wall hit by a tank or a cannon could remove / reposition the volume of the wall and change the texture to match. Perhaps spawning some actual model rocks with full physics characteristics as it is happening.

Oh the possibilities.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: PaTrond on February 25, 2013, 09:28:01 pm
Don't get me wrong, I love the progression! But there's just that I think it looks a bit too molten, both a bit too much into the ground and in the texture. Sure dirt softens the differences between the ground a rock, but I still don't quite get the rock feeling of it. What I mean about molten is that the rocks - in general - reminds me a bit too much about pyramids. The texture of the rock seems to be sharing more of the shape of dirt than actual rock, which mostly looks like What I linked just under.

Some examples of what I mean about texture: 1 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Ha_Long_bay_The_Kissing_Rocks.jpg) - 2 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Black_Rocks_-_Lime_Kiln_Point_State_Park_(757264955).jpg)

What kind of rock/ boulders "molten" into ground I'm used to: 1 (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-33R4ei82Tn8/T14Vh5yVRiI/AAAAAAAACcw/9DTwR5kvuvA/s1600/grotlesanden2.JPG) - 2 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1ybJNa8ziec/TFCVT09I9GI/AAAAAAAAAr4/nKJjQd7b1-A/s1600/IMAG0419%5B1%5D.jpg) - 3 (http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#view=photo&position=150&with_photo_id=9372659&order=date_desc&user=1598448)

I don't mean that all rocks should be bare and clean, nono! It's just that close to oceans and sandy places, there's a lot less dirt on them, as it's washed away. Same goes for hill sides, where the dirt often goes on top, but sinks further down on the side facing the descending direction of the mountain (captain obvious here..) Still there is often some dirt with greenery of larger rocks near/ in oceans, so this isn't like really far out and wrong! So, I still see a lot I like! For example how some rocks pop out of the ground on one side, how the dirt covers the rock on the other, and how grass covers the rock where there's a decent amount dirt. :)
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: sniperwolfpk5 on February 26, 2013, 12:01:26 am
(http://i5.minus.com/ib1XrkJUuvZGsK.jpg)
(http://i1.minus.com/ibgk9JjnfUEpJ3.jpg)

A few waves breaking on those and they are going to be SWEEEEEET.

Such a nice looking shots. Really impressive And under water rocks that are so sweet. The only thing which should be not there is the repeating pattern on 2nd image. I mean on ocean
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Midviki on February 26, 2013, 12:03:02 am
Animations is the last thing I want to see.

And I understand that.I know animation limits your power / control over the object and it damns you to a painful agony of work.I would prefer physics as well.

But I was pointing out that it would take time for what you just said with the physics within the wall generated.

And the issues is that if you want a custom kind of wall / brick / granite.. etc. I think its a lot of work from the developers point of view to make it possible for your custom texture and object to be adapted, looped and each loop to be blended within each other.And for example from what I have seen and tested... you can get a higher resolution and you can make any custom shape or form of the object made in a 3D software.Like this one:

(http://i.minus.com/jbyYD7quqVbmpR.jpg) (http://minus.com/lbyYD7quqVbmpR)

But for example except from animation, and the collision keeping it more than just 1 box.
Or I could make each piece as an object individually and chain them together as a group like the vehicle bones, for when I want from a bigger piece to create cracks and shatter smaller pieces.I'm thinking it might be a bit resource consuming maybe.. or not.. haven't got to that part yet.And compared with the terrain generating methods I don't know which is more efficient.

There are Ups and Downs.And I know it probably has a greater value than animation for the future.But it is something that you can't do now!!

It needs to be developed and rigorously tested.And there are other visual things that are bothering to the simple naked eye and need attendance.Like clouds, rivers, lakes, trees, seas, oceans..etc.And I know I can't just demand things, everything requires money, resources and manpower.

I can just add some idea with the hope that it may be a new idea or not, that might help or not.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: cameni on February 28, 2013, 05:29:54 pm
Outerra Rocks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUl15PXPc8M#ws)
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Juggernautz on February 28, 2013, 05:37:19 pm
That just looks absolutely stunning. I can only imagine what it will be like with 3D trees, biome foliage, weather/clouds and some animated wildlife... the future of Outerra looks bright indeed.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Éadríc on February 28, 2013, 05:44:14 pm
Lovely! It certainly adds to the natural feel.

Though this reminds me: the ground in pine forests as I know them is not draped with lush grass but a mixture of earthy and mossy, and (for lack of a better word) bumpy.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: ZeosPantera on February 28, 2013, 10:21:01 pm
I need to see these with The modified desert texture packs. Red rock deserts will look insane.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Midviki on March 01, 2013, 02:54:53 pm
The only thing I dislike about rocks is an update a few weeks ago that made the rock texture look like this:

(http://i.minus.com/jdPFUtz9NyCTq.jpg) (http://minus.com/ldPFUtz9NyCTq)

(http://i.minus.com/jbta1C3xiUusjr.jpg) (http://minus.com/lbta1C3xiUusjr)


The ground looks nice with the Normal mapping on.But the rock texture was from before the normal maps implemented.

Can't the normal maps work on rocks and hill rocks like it does on the plain ground and not require that texture full of lines ? And I saw there is a difference of detail when you are a bit more far away, but it works only when u'r far away. You can maybe make those lines to faint away when you are getting closer and probably disappear when your close enough like 2 meters or < 1 meter.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: ZeosPantera on March 01, 2013, 10:33:14 pm
you have one of your settings up too high.. Ground detail is being generated WAY past the norm like this

(http://i2.minus.com/iTOakQlwwKvrL.jpg)
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: cameni on March 02, 2013, 02:08:34 am
Are you using L24 for ground detail? There's a precision problem there with normal maps.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Midviki on March 02, 2013, 02:19:14 am
Yeah... "max terrain level generated" was at 24... if I tune it up more to 25 / 26 / etc... , I could see other things like the one when u'r too close to the ground and you see squares under you.But tuned it down to 23... the color went a bit from dark to a grey and it looks like some kind of excessive shade.And at 22 it disappeared but it started to look "minecrafty".
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Midviki on March 02, 2013, 02:22:48 am
But eh... nvm.. the player won't bother with things like this anyway.And it can be twitched in the future.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Éadríc on March 02, 2013, 09:22:49 pm
So I just played the new version, with the random rocks. Some initial thoughts:
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Midviki on March 04, 2013, 04:20:10 am
I remember seeing one picture of some beach with shallow waters and a beautiful layer of rocks along for like the first 10-20 meters from where the water was hitting.
Anyway... I could not find it but I tried to find something similar.

Maybe you will get inspired for something similar in some parts of the beaches, rivers, springs...etc.

(http://i.minus.com/jbcEg6NLyCIPUh.jpg) (http://minus.com/lbcEg6NLyCIPUh) (http://i.minus.com/jbTREDZqqGkB3.jpg) (http://minus.com/lbTREDZqqGkB3)

(http://i.minus.com/jbf9skQaCBZo6g.jpg) (http://minus.com/lbf9skQaCBZo6g)

(http://i.minus.com/jbwjNS5DYMPsj4.jpg) (http://minus.com/lbwjNS5DYMPsj4)

(http://i.minus.com/jbcCKtF4yZ3pPr.jpg) (http://minus.com/lbcCKtF4yZ3pPr)
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: Draglide12 on July 11, 2013, 09:59:29 pm
Just remember that there will be a lot more rocks around in areas around glaciers or where glaciers have been.
Title: Re: Random rocks
Post by: KelvinNZ on August 10, 2013, 08:18:36 pm
The only thing I dislike about rocks is an update a few weeks ago that made the rock texture look like this:

(http://i.minus.com/jdPFUtz9NyCTq.jpg) (http://minus.com/ldPFUtz9NyCTq)

(http://i.minus.com/jbta1C3xiUusjr.jpg) (http://minus.com/lbta1C3xiUusjr)

The ground looks nice with the Normal mapping on.But the rock texture was from before the normal maps implemented.

Can't the normal maps work on rocks and hill rocks like it does on the plain ground and not require that texture full of lines ? And I saw there is a difference of detail when you are a bit more far away, but it works only when u'r far away. You can maybe make those lines to faint away when you are getting closer and probably disappear when your close enough like 2 meters or < 1 meter.

Brano has previously mentioned that shape files will be utilized to depict certain characteristics of rock areas. This tech is expected to give different rock areas some uniqueness. I have a collection of different textures that suit this purpose, just waiting for the coding to be done to enable this to be tested.

Cheers,

K.