Outerra forum

Outerra Engine => News => Topic started by: cameni on December 08, 2010, 03:24:58 pm

Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 08, 2010, 03:24:58 pm
A short blog (http://outerra.blogspot.com/2010/12/iitsec-iss-and-ddg-96.html) about our appearance at I/ITSEC conference.
Also a video with ISS and USS Bainbridge ship. Don't mind the bugs visible on the water - they have been fixed already.

Test ISS in Outerra (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmeiXEm9hFY#ws)
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: ddenn on December 08, 2010, 04:10:19 pm
That is very impressive!
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: petitfilou on December 08, 2010, 04:12:22 pm
That's stunning ,  Congrats on the great feedback from that show.   I love the shoreline waves action you've got going, would it be possible soon to see the water closeup?   are there wave movements, like crests etc, or is it flat?
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 08, 2010, 04:25:11 pm
I was focusing on getting the shore waves right - so they would be coming in parallel to the shore. That now works, but there are other things that need to be done yet.
Here's a slightly newer video with camera viewing from shore.

[youtube2]X9B6rK0WwHI[/youtube2]
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: alaister kay on December 08, 2010, 05:03:17 pm
Wow that is stunning! And I guess early development of water bodies. Im looking forward to how this progresses
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: petitfilou on December 08, 2010, 05:51:03 pm
Thanks for the 2nd video, it does look amazing! love the white foam forming. very natural looking.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: RaikoRaufoss on December 08, 2010, 10:37:24 pm
1st video looks really good, but there's some artifacting from 2:11 to 2:22, consisting of dark blue dots moving rapidly across the bottom of the screen.  2nd video looks great too.  A couple of suggestions: Could we have more than just DDG-96?  There are a few naval vessels that deserve to be rendered and incorporated into the demo:

USS Samuel B. Roberts DE-413 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Samuel_B._Roberts_(DE-413)) This ship is 100% hero.  Period.
HMS Hood (http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/battleships/hms_hood.htm) This ship would look great in Outerra.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on December 09, 2010, 12:40:19 am
Bleh, the internet hates me tonight.  Keeps eating my posts ...

I like the new scenes, especially vid2.  The only thing that threw me off was the shadow on the bow of the ship, but I think that's because there's no reference shadowing around it.

And for my part, I'd love to see a circa 1600s-1800s sailing vessel ... perhaps the HMS Beagle :D  Or an old Viking ship.

Or hell, how about one of the $50 fishing boats you can buy at a local Walmart :p  Imagine how long it would take to travel the Atlantic in one of those hehe.

*Yay! After four attempts, it finally posted!
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 09, 2010, 03:48:12 am
Quote from: RaikoRaufoss
1st video looks really good, but there's some artifacting from 2:11 to 2:22, consisting of dark blue dots moving rapidly across the bottom of the screen.
Yep. That's why I wrote in the blog "Don't mind the bugs visible on the water - they have been fixed already for the presentation". I forgot to mention it here :)

Quote
2nd video looks great too.  A couple of suggestions: Could we have more than just DDG-96?  There are a few naval vessels that deserve to be rendered and incorporated into the demo:

USS Samuel B. Roberts DE-413 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Samuel_B._Roberts_(DE-413)) This ship is 100% hero.  Period.
HMS Hood (http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/battleships/hms_hood.htm) This ship would look great in Outerra.
The vessel and ISS are there just as models, no physics attached to them. It was quickly done for demo purposes. When we'll get our hands on other models they can be included too, but we'll have to develop some physics for it before one could play with them.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 09, 2010, 03:50:27 am
Quote from: cshawnsmith
I like the new scenes, especially vid2.  The only thing that threw me off was the shadow on the bow of the ship, but I think that's because there's no reference shadowing around it.
The lighting isn't right yet, particularly there's no illumination from water so the bow is too dark.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: ZeosPantera on December 09, 2010, 06:00:57 am
I really liked the ISS part of the video. It really worked well in showing off some of the space elements. But when I saw that boat and even the distant shore my heart skipped a beat.. Then when I scrolled down and saw the just water video.. I was forced to wake up a friend.. at 6am to send it to him.

F___! I am convinced that is the best looking/behaving water I have ever seen in a game and it's in alpha still.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 09, 2010, 06:12:15 am
Quote from: ZeosPantera
I was forced to wake up a friend.. at 6am to send it to him.
:lol:

I would not dare to try that on Angrypig :D
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: MatthewS on December 09, 2010, 09:36:27 am
Quote from: cameni
Here's a slightly newer video with camera viewing from shore.

OMG that water is absolutely incredible!!!  

I can imagine that scene with palm trees, the water looks very tropical.  

Will you be coloring water based on depth, clarity/algae level, temperature, time of day etc?  It would be fantastic if Outerra could somehow simulate the way different oceans/seas have different colors, eg Atlantic is very different to the Aegean.

Would be 3rd party developers be able to give Outerra "hints", eg a polygon covering mouth of the Amazon saying  'this water is very muddy' and then Outerra could colorize the water appropriately?

Amazing!
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 09, 2010, 10:57:57 am
Yes, water will be subject to climate data as well. There are several parameters that affect the appearance, like RGB attenuation with depth and reflectance and muddiness etc. They are now hard coded in, but will be dragged out to be customizable.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on December 09, 2010, 02:26:38 pm
By the way, I meant to ask earlier: Where are we on earth in the beach video?
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 09, 2010, 02:44:49 pm
Even though the water is my task, and I'm currently operating around Taiwan, the video was taken by Angrypig who is currently residing in Capri, Italy, so the video is probably from there somewhere around.
:)
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: ZeosPantera on December 09, 2010, 03:34:38 pm
Quote from: cameni
Even though the water is my task, and I'm currently operating around Taiwan, the video was taken by Angrypig who is currently residing in Capri, Italy, so the video is probably from there somewhere around.
:)

Must be fun to go to work saying.. "I am going to be working off the coastline of Venice today" or "I will do land deformation tests today on the Mexican Baja peninsula"

Also, I notice a hiccup in the seamless LOD at around 1:09 on the ISS video. You can see all the trees spawn in. Don't recall it ever doing that in other videos.

EDIT: Now I remember what I wanted to ask.. Does the ship actually float or is it just placed there frozen as a prop?
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: flightmaster on December 09, 2010, 03:35:32 pm
can someone give me a description of peoples reaction at the display? I can only imagine :D.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: RaikoRaufoss on December 09, 2010, 03:46:40 pm
Quote from: flightmaster
can someone give me a description of peoples reaction at the display? I can only imagine :D.
I'd like to know people's reactions too. =D
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 09, 2010, 03:52:15 pm
Quote from: ZeosPantera
Also, I notice a hiccup in the seamless LOD at around 1:09 on the ISS video. You can see all the trees spawn in. Don't recall it ever doing that in other videos.

EDIT: Now I remember what I wanted to ask.. Does the ship actually float or is it just placed there frozen as a prop?
There is a newly introduced bug, after I have been working on optimizing LOD management with regards to memory consumption. It now sometimes blocks new requests. There's a problem with prioritization, but it will be addressed.

The ship model is just placed there, no physics yet.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on December 09, 2010, 03:59:53 pm
Quote from: flightmaster
can someone give me a description of peoples reaction at the display? I can only imagine :D

Answer:

Wayne: "No way!"
Garth: "Way!"
Wayne: "No way!"
Garth: "Way!"
Wayne: "Way?!"
Garth: "Yeah, way!"
Wayne: "Awesome!"
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: Abc94 on December 09, 2010, 05:13:10 pm
Too bad there isn't a game engine of the year competition at MODDB as I am sure Outerra would win by a long shot!  :D

Water looks great even if it wasn't an alpha! I can hardly wait for the demo now and I hope that AMD is able to fix the remaining driver bugs!

BTW you should upload the blog post to the MODDB page.  From what I can see right now only the shoreline video has been added.

Also having the camera look backwards at the ISS while going from space to ground would make a cool video.  :cool:
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 09, 2010, 05:29:03 pm
It's been already posted on ModDB, admins are taking their time :)

Camera looking backwards - you'll lose the ISS almost immediately at the speed that shows you are moving at all with respect to earth. That was a problem initially - as you probably know, our free motion controller has the speed dependent on altitude, so that there's a constant feeling of speed. Now the ISS is only 150m long, and just a tiny movement meant that you could never find the station again. Not a chance.

We had to reduce the base speed drastically during the flight around ISS, and then boosting it 1000x to get down in a reasonable time :)


Btw I'll get Robert to say something about the reactions at the exhibition.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: u3z05en on December 09, 2010, 05:40:24 pm
Is it bad to be wishing I could be adventuring for days on end in the virtual world of Outerra.... cause I am.

Right now, I'd really like to be playing a real time strategy on that island. Building fortifications and amassing armies. Exploring and colonising and maybe evolving to space tech and launching transports into space... sigh.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: RaikoRaufoss on December 09, 2010, 07:13:29 pm
Quote from: u3z05en
Is it bad to be wishing I could be adventuring for days on end in the virtual world of Outerra.... cause I am.

Right now, I'd really like to be playing a real time strategy on that island. Building fortifications and amassing armies. Exploring and colonising and maybe evolving to space tech and launching transports into space... sigh.
That's part of my dream for Outerra too, there's nothing wrong with it.  And welcome. :)
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: WarlockSyno on December 09, 2010, 11:39:09 pm
If I remember correctly, Outerra has multiplayer support. So, just wondering, how far can two users be apart from each other? Or can they go to the far limits of the known engine galaxy?


Good job on the ISS! It looks really good even though it's default textured. The lighting makes it absolutely sexy.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on December 10, 2010, 12:01:26 am
I think we all do that from time to time as we await the next tidbit of 411 from the Outerra team.  Me, myself, and I, still await the moment I can "walk the Earth" like Kwai-chang Kane, and/or stand in a stream and fish.  Not to mention being able to fly the F-22 into enemy territory.  So many possibilities, so little time.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 10, 2010, 12:58:16 am
Quote from: WarlockSyno
If I remember correctly, Outerra has multiplayer support. So, just wondering, how far can two users be apart from each other? Or can they go to the far limits of the known engine galaxy?
It's not a true multiplayer yet, just two computers can be tied together, exchanging positional and model information. The two players can be arbitrarily apart from each other. The connection is automatic once configured, so we aren't even aware of it normally.
 So much better are the rare moments when suddenly you spot something moving in otherwise silent world; it takes a while of staring on those pixels until you realize it's the other one traveling somewhere :)
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: Robert on December 10, 2010, 11:39:13 am
Hello followers of Outerra,

The feedback we received from IITSEC conference www.iitsec.org (http://www.iitsec.org) was extremely positive and exciting.  As Brano said we didn’t have a booth presence at IITSEC, but we did have a ‘walking booth’ in spirit :)

IITSEC had many different types of venders showcasing their wares.  The products showcase ranged from hardware, training aids such as firearm replicas, giant motion control machines that simulated small watercraft, virtual small arms firing ranges, flight sims, driving sims, to GIS type software covering the gauntlet from first person shooters to large scale operational environments and terrain generation.  Rarely did I see an opportunity that in some degree Outerra might not fit in with or a business case for.

The demoing went extremely well.  Gaining an audience of one member at a booth generally lead to an excited member asking me if I could hold out and or come back to do another demo for more members of their team, and more than once, a direct audience with company presidents and upper management.  I can’t mention names, but we were told to expect contact/discussion from them in the future.

We received a range of questions about features and functionality.  Many of the same questions posted here on our forums.  There were a few unique ones generally related to issues that are probably common to the individual Vis/Sim disciplines in the field.  We were told that if we could address some of them that we may even have a stronger business case for Outerra in the future.  I will probably hold off on showcasing any these questions due to possible future negotiation with these companies for now.

I’m hoping that by next year’s end, we will have a real booth at IITSEC for all of you to come by and visit us.  I’ll try to come up with a cool and unique swag to take home with you.

BTW… We got our first name recognition while walking around the trade show floor.  I had OUTERRA printed on my name badge…. “Hey, I know Outerra, I’ve been following you guys on your forum for months”

-Thanks Michael!!!

Jeez, I’m starting to feel like a Rock Star!  :D

 
Robert Francis -BD
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: ZeosPantera on December 10, 2010, 03:42:01 pm
Quote from: Robert
I’m starting to feel like a Rock Star!  :D

The Clothes make the man. And someone with an Outerra Badge at a simulations conference is pretty much Mick Jagger in my book. Only without the drugs and more talented.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: halobungie on December 11, 2010, 03:54:07 am
Hello Cameni,

you have write: Yep. That's why I wrote in the blog "Don't mind the bugs visible on the water - they have been fixed already for the presentation". I forgot to mention it here

Can you show us the fixed water coastline?

Greetings,
halobungie
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 11, 2010, 04:09:43 am
I meant the black and white dots on water when looking from above, these are already fixed but we didn't make another video yet.
I'm currently working more on the water, since the first version didn't support translucency of objects submerged in water. I will write a more detailed blog about the water when it's done, also describing some algorithms there.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: petitfilou on December 11, 2010, 05:09:15 am
Will there be eventually some underwater vegetation?  seaweed, dirt particles, etc?  
And what about wildlife, like fish in the sea, rabbits, deer, etc on land ?  I know its not a priority at this stage, but later on.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 11, 2010, 05:51:46 am
You probably don't expect me to say nay, no and never, and that engine's architecture disallows any underwater vegetation :)

Oceans should be subject to climate and land class data as well, that means the underwater vegetation will change depending on the climate, and seafloor should be different too.
Once the animals are spawned, I'm sure it will include sea creatures.

Although, getting the animals behaving to Outerra standards .. will be some work :|

Yeah and dirt particles, that's something Angrypig is sawing my ears with from water day one :P
Weird, I though "sawing someone's ears" is a universal phrase, but now I can find it used only in Slovak language.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: grabacr 31770 on December 11, 2010, 09:36:28 am
The water especially looks unbelievable.

One thing I was thinking when watching it, was the lack of sound. It'll be amazing when the environment creates sound- howling of wind, splash of waves, pattering of rain. It'll be awesome.

The conference seemed to produce amazing results, congrats with everything guys.

You saw 'when the animals are spawned'. Are there going to be animals that roam the land? If there are, that would be unbelievable. To see birds, deer and everything else would be stunning.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: flightmaster on December 11, 2010, 12:04:30 pm
Quote from: grabacr 31770
The water especially looks unbelievable.

One thing I was thinking when watching it, was the lack of sound. It'll be amazing when the environment creates sound- howling of wind, splash of waves, pattering of rain. It'll be awesome.

The conference seemed to produce amazing results, congrats with everything guys.

You saw 'when the animals are spawned'. Are there going to be animals that roam the land? If there are, that would be unbelievable. To see birds, deer and everything else would be stunning.
I agree, just thinking of it gives me this: O_O
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 11, 2010, 12:37:24 pm
Yes the sound is very much needed there, I think we'll do at least some ambient one with basic environment detection, so it changes with proximity to forests or sea.

Animals would greatly liven up the world, but obviously they aren't priority now.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: grabacr 31770 on December 11, 2010, 01:48:17 pm
Quote from: cameni
Yes the sound is very much needed there, I think we'll do at least some ambient one with basic environment detection, so it changes with proximity to forests or sea.

Animals would greatly liven up the world, but obviously they aren't priority now.

I understand why they aren't priority, it could even be something left alone which can be created by modders.

I run out of words to describe this. My posting thoughts go something like-

'well, I've used 'awesome' twice, 'unbelievable' 3 times, 'amazing' 4 times, 'stunning' once... in this one sentence. Bugger. *reaches for thesaurus*'
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: petitfilou on December 12, 2010, 05:38:31 am
If, when the day comes, you need some animals in outerra.  I'd be happy to provide some cycles/behaviour animations.  If they could be done in Softimage and exported somehow, maybe collada?  

Before you ask, yes I am an animator (and bit of a generalist).  ;o)    

I'm working full time, but could do some in my spare time.   I could even model some animals if you can't find models.

You could have, say, one deer duplicated with AI creating herds etc.  with random anims playing,  that'd be great to see in your engine.

I'm thinking like World of Warcraft 's got some nice moments when wolves attack rabbits, etc.  obviously done in a more realistic way, to fit with the world.

Anyway, just ask when you're ready and interested.  Cheers
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 12, 2010, 08:58:07 am
Thanks, I'm sure we could use a skilled animator when the time comes.

As you maybe know, we are thinking about making a game capable of demonstrating the engine, that wouldn't be too heavy on our limited resources. That means extensively using procedural stuff, without too much modeling. At the same time we want a whole planet there, and these are some serious constraints put on the game.

 Procedural stuff will mainly generate the world without human influence. A civilization game from the past when man began conquering the world pretty much dominated by wolves? There would be many types of animals roaming when humans are low. Or the game setting could be in the future with humans almost wiped out with nature reclaiming the world - this would be better as it will allow use of post-modern vehicles. Anyway, there would have to be a much greater representation of animals than we are used to now.

So I think it's possible we will be testing the needed bits soon, including some animals. We will setup a forum to discuss the sandbox/civ game idea, as we received a lot of feedback that says there exists a large group of players that want a sandbox-like game, with exploration and some tension elements etc. I know there are many flight simmers that just want a copy of the contemporary world that probably won't like it, but that concept requires a much higher investment. The tools developed here for world editing will be needed for other areas, so it's not like a totally divergent path though.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: petitfilou on December 12, 2010, 11:54:23 am
No worries,  it was just in case at some point some wildlife animation would be needed.    I guess you would animate herds, or flock of birds procedurally, but use hand made anims, like bird flapping its wings, deer walk cycle, etc..    like in a video game really.

Do you think developers in the future could add their own wildlife to the game? like addons for vehicles?....  like importing a deer model with run, walk anim,  then use procedural tools to create behavior, animals scattering if you get too close, etc.?

cheers.

EDIT:  I kinda repeated what mentionned really.   oops.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: OGREMAN on December 12, 2010, 07:22:47 pm
......... Here's a slightly newer video with camera viewing from shore....

Ohh Yeah!   This program is becoming a full time distraction ...... I LOVE IT  .... If a usable version was made available tomorrow IT WOULD STILL NOT BE SOON ENOUGH .... sooo excited at the possible use for this...
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: MatthewS on December 12, 2010, 09:23:04 pm
Quote from: petitfilou
Do you think developers in the future could add their own wildlife to the game? like addons for vehicles?....  like importing a deer model with run, walk anim,  then use procedural tools to create behavior, animals scattering if you get too close, etc.?

I reckon Outerra should offer a much lower level of support for developers.

Let developer via API do the following:-

- Create object
- Destroy object
- Set object position (heading, alt, pitch, bank)
- Set object animation (eg "walking")
- Move object along set of waypoints at given speed.
- Query object position by handle
- Query object info by object handle (eg object name, supported animations etc)
- Get list of object handles within a given radius

With those basic capabilities a 3rd party developer could write any sort of "AI" module, eg wildlife, AI aircraft with ATC control, ground crew, airport "crowds" etc etc.

IMHO its more important that Outerra supply an API with a lot of low level capabilities so that 3rd parties can "value add" rather than Outerra try to add this "value" themselves.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: Tim on December 13, 2010, 04:03:41 am
For "Serious Gaming" it is better to move as much "intelligence" as possible out of the image generating software into an external host. Even better: use a standard. Check out the Common Image Generator Interface (CIGI) from Boeing (http://cigi.sourceforge.net/)

BTW: Keep up your outstanding work!!
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: MatthewS on December 13, 2010, 04:15:16 am
Quote from: Tim
For "Serious Gaming" it is better to move as much "intelligence" as possible out of the image generating software into an external host. Even better: use a standard. Check out the Common Image Generator Interface (CIGI) from Boeing (http://cigi.sourceforge.net/)

BTW: Keep up your outstanding work!!


Exactly... hence the need for Outerra to have an API that lets 3rd party developers exercise low level control of the engine.

Sort of like what SimConnect did for FSX but make it more comprehensive.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: cameni on December 13, 2010, 08:26:10 am
Quote from: Tim
For "Serious Gaming" it is better to move as much "intelligence" as possible out of the image generating software into an external host. Even better: use a standard. Check out the Common Image Generator Interface (CIGI) from Boeing (http://cigi.sourceforge.net/)
Thanks, I've looked at it briefly, seems to be fairly easy to implement.

I'm wondering what other such standards exists and what representation on the market they have got. We will be probably implementing some such interface soon as there are some customers and academic projects that would like to use Outerra as an image generator already. Obviously we'd like to pick one standard that would cover most of them in the future.

Does something equivalent to Simconnect exist as an open standard?
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: tknudsen on December 17, 2010, 05:49:29 pm
This is awsome, is there any way this could even be a flightsimulator once? If so, my dreams will be fullfilled.
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: ZeosPantera on December 17, 2010, 11:14:52 pm
Quote from: tknudsen
This is awsome, is there any way this could even be a flightsimulator once? If so, my dreams will be fullfilled.

Please, Please, Please read some of the posts in this forum before asking really simple answered years ago questions.. And welcome to the forums..
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: Bartolomeus on January 15, 2011, 05:19:57 pm
That is stunning. The water environment looks really impressive. In the second video, the water looks natural and real. I like especially the white foam on the waves.

Im looking forward to the progress of the water environment! I think the Outerra engine is the best solution for a Martime Simulation. Because the engine is not restricted to small areas. Outerra looks much better than VStep's ShipSimulator (based on the Quest).

Best Regards
Marko
Title: IITSEC, ISS and DDG-96
Post by: Seth on January 26, 2011, 09:52:21 am
Quote from: cshawnsmith
Bleh, the internet hates me tonight.  Keeps eating my posts ...

And for my part, I'd love to see a circa 1600s-1800s sailing vessel ... perhaps the HMS Beagle :D  Or an old Viking ship.

Or hell, how about one of the $50 fishing boats you can buy at a local Walmart :p  Imagine how long it would take to travel the Atlantic in one of those hehe.


I would like to see this too.