Outerra forum

User mods, screenshots & videos => Aircraft => Topic started by: RobDeBob on May 30, 2013, 02:21:57 am

Title: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: RobDeBob on May 30, 2013, 02:21:57 am
Whenever I apply the slightest bit of throttle the helicopter starts spinning uncontrollably and seems to have a mind of its own; I can fly fine in other games, e.g. ArmA, DCS Black Shark. What's up?
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: cameni on May 30, 2013, 03:30:52 am
All flight models are raw simulation models for JSBSim flight dynamics simulator, that try to be realistic and don't always come with any stabilizers to help the control. That means, for example, the Cessna is affected by the counterforce from the propeller, getting you into spin. Helicopters are more complex and harder to control without helpers.

To control them they necessarily have to be trimmed, i.e. applied counterforces that balance it so you can fly them without having to constantly apply the forces manually. Unfortunately, the balance changes with speed and altitude, and it has to be occasionally re-trimmed.

There will be also a simpler physics mode that basically turns off the simulated realistic forces from the propellers, allowing you to disregard them, but that needs to be tweaked into the existing simulation models.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: RobDeBob on May 30, 2013, 06:02:15 am
I understand that, but should lifting off from a completely level surface cause the helicopter to yaw massively 2m off the ground? I understand that I can use the pedals to apply anti-torque but even then it's a constant struggle.

The way the controls do not permit a mouse and only keyboard/gamepad/joystick input currently makes it very difficult (at least for me) to find a layout that allows me to quickly adjust counterforces and stay airborne, much less actually pilot. Too much finger fumbling.

I posted in the aircraft section that it would be nice to have a mouse input mode, which either locks head movement in place and has a button to activate it (ala ArmA), or uses the Oculus Rift for headtracking.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: cameni on May 30, 2013, 06:27:00 am
I guess it could be somehow preset for lifting off the ground; I'm wondering if it's been set up for a certain speed or not preset at all.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: Pyroman31FF on May 30, 2013, 09:08:01 am
Flying fine in arma? Liar, its not possible at speeds above 50km/h.

You should try out the DCS UH1 Huey btw. There you will also notice your chopper instantly rotating to the left as soon as you apply power.
The reason it doesnt happen at arma is that there is no proper forcesimulation there.
The reason it doesnt happen at blackshark is the fact why ed did the blackshark back then in the first place. Its coaxialrotorsystem. They counter each others turningtendencies. The apache though had only his tailrotor to counter this movement, which is not sufficient all the time ;)
Also in the huey constant rudderinput has to be applied.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: M7 on May 30, 2013, 09:26:15 am
You definitly need pedals to fly this thing cause you have to use rudder quite a bit at takeoff and landing. Maybe some preset trim for the rudder would help.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: Pyroman31FF on May 30, 2013, 09:28:55 am
In the other thread he mentioned he is flying via, mouse, keyboard and ps3 controller. So i'm not surprised he is struggeling...
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: ZeosPantera on May 30, 2013, 09:39:39 am
Those gunships can be tricky.. With a joystick and practice you can get "good" at it but it certainly isn't keyboard friendly.

Make sure you aren't just nailing the throttle at 100% as that is a surefire way to ruin a flight experience. Everything in moderation.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: M7 on May 30, 2013, 09:56:37 am
I remember in the days of Janes Apache i was flying with a MS sidewinder ( through joystick port) that has a swivel stick. It worked pretty well back then. I'm positive that a similar joystick would work here if you dont want to invest in pedals.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: zaelu on May 30, 2013, 01:19:50 pm
I can fly DCS Black Shark pretty well, I don't have yet the Huey but I don't expect it to be a real "impossible" challenge. But the Apache in Outerra is a bit wrong. I like it how it unsettles when you change speed or collective but 95% it just tumbles ridiculously on the ground and remains upside down. I think is work in progress though and never meant to be a real simulation... at least not for now.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: ZeosPantera on May 30, 2013, 01:54:03 pm
Maybe the COM is off.. I never looked at the scripts for vehicles but it makes some sense.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: Pyroman31FF on May 30, 2013, 02:00:22 pm
Then everyone would suffer from this an this board would have a lot more complaints about it i guess.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: bugsblake on May 30, 2013, 02:29:41 pm
i have found this un flyable! starts spinning to the right the second i leave the ground! thought it was just me as im a flight simmer for planes! not really into choppers so didnt really bother me! not tried with my saitek x52 yet though!
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: M7 on May 30, 2013, 02:52:29 pm
It's my favorite aircraft to fly, probably because you cant fly it with keyboard only, unlike other planes. Zeos might be onto something with the com thing even though theres nothing looking like that in the .js .

Have to admit, It is quite tricky to take off, almost impossible to hover without pulling the stick on one side but that might just be me.

Looking forward to try the chinook, i know i've seen it somewhere in Cameni video.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: RobDeBob on May 30, 2013, 08:28:22 pm
Welp, guess I'm screwed then, since the only usable input I have for Anteworld is my keyboard. I have never flown with nor own a joystick, but I've logged countless hours of chopper flight in ArmA/DCS BS. All with a mouse/keyboard scheme. I would really appreciate the addition of mouse input. Trying to manage anti-torque, cyclic, collective, and throttle with a keyboard is a disaster.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: Atrax on May 31, 2013, 03:52:35 am
It would be cool if choppers would fly similar as in Take On Helicopters, they have it right in th emiddle, it's not a full on sim but it's not arcade either. Just right in other words. :)
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: PytonPago on May 31, 2013, 04:52:09 am
It would be cool if choppers would fly similar as in Take On Helicopters, they have it right in th emiddle, it's not a full on sim but it's not arcade either. Just right in other words. :)

Yes, the basic sequences are a good thing to have in helis ...
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: ZeosPantera on May 31, 2013, 01:46:22 pm
I think two modes. One that is complete fake arcade and the other 100% as pure sim as you can get. You don't want people seeing the arcade mode and thinking OT isn't the homeworld for the hardest core sims on earth (maybe big virtual training wheels on all non-sim vehicles?). Want to fly around with ease there is a UFO mode for that. Otherwise prepare to destroy your desk fitting purpose build simulation hardware because flying a helicopter is hard, takes years of training and is hard.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: PytonPago on May 31, 2013, 02:10:16 pm
...  because flying a helicopter is hard, takes years of training and is hard.

 ... no need to say to someone, who wanted to fly mil. Mi-24s.  :D  .... so actually 3 modes then - a joystick/mouse total simplistic arcade type, the TonH 4-5 step start type and the full-Sim version ... lets make every single peace of hardware in OT that way (for ground units it would be something like WofT - Battlefield - SteelBeasts way combination) !  8)
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: Pyroman31FF on May 31, 2013, 03:43:11 pm
Replace battlefield with red orchestra 2 ;)
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: SpaceFlight on May 31, 2013, 05:19:48 pm
...  because flying a helicopter is hard, takes years of training and is hard.

 ... no need to say to someone, who wanted to fly mil. Mi-24s.  :D  .... so actually 3 modes then - a joystick/mouse total simplistic arcade type, the TonH 4-5 step start type and the full-Sim version ... lets make every single peace of hardware in OT that way (for ground units it would be something like WofT - Battlefield - SteelBeasts way combination) !  8)

I agree, also since you mentioned Battlefield, I would not mind the arcade type control of aircraft to be similar to Battlefield 3's helicopter and plane controls.

Also agree with Zeos, Outerra deserves no less than hardcore controls for its flying machines as an option.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: RobDeBob on May 31, 2013, 08:33:23 pm
I would personally prefer to have an intermediate option that resembles ArmA, BF3 is simply too arcadey and puts limitations on flight speed and manuevers. I'm comfortable with both but I don't think a BF3esque flight model would suit this game.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: KelvinNZ on May 31, 2013, 09:57:59 pm
Ok, I have never flown a helicopter but have time in General Aviation aircraft and can tell you this;

If I tried to fly a plane using the keyboard I would inevitably crash (considering all forces acting as they should and even atmospheric variables but i'll leave the atmospherics out for now).

Yaw is going to be there from the start as it is caused by;

Torque reaction from engine
Spiraling slip stream
Gyroscopic action from the propeller, and;
Asymmetric loading

Assuming JSBSim modelling is accurate then by default you will need a variable rudder input which is a constant requirement in any aircraft in many situations. Simple controls would need to be set to disregard the yaw effect which is most likely the effect you are experiencing with the chopper. Yaw can also lead to a wing drop (among other factors) but can cause all sorts of problems to maintain straight and level flight at the bare minimum.

Perhaps even an auto-trim for those who don't wish to bother flying as per real world. Otherwise, the appropriate hardware is required, nothing less, if you wish to experience most/all the forces acting on the aircraft.

I can tell you it is much more challenging to experience these but acknowledge more frustrating for those who either don't understand the aerodynamic concepts or are more concerned with the scenery out the window rather than constant handling of the aircraft.

I can say that very little time is spent out the window when flying IRL as there is much to do and focus on to maintain proper handling of the aircraft. In a simulated environment there may be less interest in these areas but I personally enjoy the accuracy of flight dynamics over ease of use.

A setting just may strike a balance between those who just want to fly the aircraft and those who want to tackle the challenge of true flight.

Cheers,

K.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: PytonPago on June 01, 2013, 02:41:44 am
I would personally prefer to have an intermediate option that resembles ArmA, BF3 is simply too arcadey and puts limitations on flight speed and manuevers. I'm comfortable with both but I don't think a BF3esque flight model would suit this game.

No bad if both are there, just a option change away   ;D  ... actually, i dislike the BF helis too,nothing wrong whyte the collective being mouse, i just hate the predefined intensities (i know they wanted some variation in handling, but feels actually too extreme) But for OT, it would be a good simplistic way for the lazy-arcade community. It would be great, if there was some additional option to have the basic sensitivities or individual (simply all vehicles would have its own settings, as their weight and other parameters could result in bad handling on the basics).
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: Atrax on June 01, 2013, 06:25:36 am
I would personally prefer to have an intermediate option that resembles ArmA, BF3 is simply too arcadey and puts limitations on flight speed and manuevers. I'm comfortable with both but I don't think a BF3esque flight model would suit this game.

The exact reason why I mentioned Take On Helicopters, cause it's not too arcadey and it's not full on sim, although it is more on sim side than arcade. :)
But ability to choose between arcade physics/controls, mid sim/arcade like Take On Helis, and full on sim like X-plane <which is the best aviation sim atm in my mind, would be rather awesome as it would be accessable to all types of players arcade ones and simmers, and would make Outerra team more money that they deserve, since more players would find something to their liking! :)
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: Pyroman31FF on June 02, 2013, 11:40:33 am
BF3 is simply too arcadey and puts limitations on flight speed and manuevers.

No difference to Arma then...
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: Pyroman31FF on June 02, 2013, 11:43:47 am

But ability to choose between arcade physics/controls, mid sim/arcade like Take On Helis, and full on sim like X-plane <which is the best aviation sim atm in my mind, would be rather awesome as it would be accessable to all types of players arcade ones and simmers, and would make Outerra team more money that they deserve, since more players would find something to their liking! :)


That would not be the businees of the outerrateam but the simulatordev's. So it would be their money, outerra would only benefit from the licensefees.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: zaelu on June 10, 2013, 11:48:19 am
OK... I can confirm is flyable but the controls get messed up sometimes... or you don't really know what your inputs are.

For current version I could name as bugs the absence of sound effects for Apache (Mig29 and Cesna have sounds) and the fact that the simulation freezes after about 6 minutes (in Mig29 also)... Only the aircraft freezes in mid air.

Here is my successfully in game recorded flight (note the freeze at the end and the absence of sound effects like engines rotors etc):

Test of Apache in Outerra 0.7.16.3722 (alpha) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDYOb2aujfk#ws)
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: RobDeBob on June 11, 2013, 05:49:26 am
I should have titled this thread "AH-64 unflyable with default keyboard input." But thanks for the video.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: paradeigmas on June 16, 2013, 12:55:49 pm
actually... If you disable the default "Hover Mode" by pushing H before flying the AH-64, it becomes quite flyable!
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: Cole on June 26, 2013, 05:10:46 am
This uncontrollable spinning you speak of is technically called "torque". The main rotor spinning causes the helicopter to rotate. It is compensated only a small amount by the tail rotor, but can be handled easily by the pilot changing the collective of the rotor or using yaw to rotate the aircraft in the opposite direction.

Ever tried flying a chopper in X-Plane? It's not easy stuff.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: Excrubulent on September 22, 2013, 11:23:32 am
If you want to fly with the keyboard, it's nigh impossible.  Here's a quick demo flight I recorded, which is mainly just an excuse to show off.  8)

Fido Loves Melnand, Outerra and Wagner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6-30Hd_LBE#)

If you watch the throttle indicator (it's actually the collective) on the bottom left, you can see I'm changing it constantly.  That's the only way to fly a chopper, with constant smooth adjustment of all your inputs.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: hambo on October 22, 2013, 03:01:31 pm
I agree with the general consensus of the need for two modes: Easy-ish, and Realistic.

I personally love the realism that JSBSim brings, but it is hard to fly the AH-64 without a joystick so I can see why another, assisted mode is wanted by some.

Whatever you do though, don't delete or modify the current realistic model because it's great fun!

Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: VendorX on November 08, 2013, 12:18:42 pm
This uncontrollable spinning you speak of is technically called "torque". The main rotor spinning causes the helicopter to rotate. It is compensated only a small amount by the tail rotor, but can be handled easily by the pilot changing the collective of the rotor or using yaw to rotate the aircraft in the opposite direction.

Ever tried flying a chopper in X-Plane? It's not easy stuff.
... it should be compensated by the tail rotor - in the end, this is why the helicopter can turn left/right (of course, all depends on the wind direction ...).
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: ZeosPantera on November 08, 2013, 12:29:40 pm
Think about how awesome a game would be if different sections of the globe didn't allow arcade handling of cars and planes. You would be perfectly fine living and moving around 50% of the world and FORCED to better yourself and your control schemes to habituate the other half.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: VendorX on November 08, 2013, 12:37:17 pm
I don't quite understand ...
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: ZeosPantera on November 08, 2013, 02:42:27 pm
Restricted zones for only people willing to learn to actually fly the sim versions of things.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: PytonPago on November 08, 2013, 05:39:58 pm
Yes ! Sim areas ! That would be something interesting.
Title: Re: AH-64 unflyable?
Post by: driflysh on March 28, 2014, 05:50:35 pm
Sorry for digging out this topic but flying heli really doesn't seem realistic. I must admit that I never flew a heli but I'm an engineer working in aerospace industry, flew several flight sims and I'm flying an rc-heli (no coax, no multi-copter but a blade mcp-x) as well as an rc-plane. So I think that I have at least a slight understanding of flight physics. I see that collective- and throttle-management is quite tricky anyway but most problems in this direction would probably be solved if the "hover mode" was deactivated by default. My remaining problem is the anti-torque. While standing quitely on a constant height without horizontal speed you should be able to rotate as long as you want. But I can't. The heli always stops rotating at about 30° and flips back when I stop applying torque. Of course planes do that and if you want to fly curves with helis while having a certain horizontal speed, you have to apply cyclic left/right, of course. But while standing still I have no explanation for this behaviour.

Are the flight physics integrated correctly? Is the steering modelled correctly? Is it my mistake?