Outerra forum
Anteworld - Outerra Game => Terrain & terrain data issues => Topic started by: John514 on September 23, 2014, 02:33:11 pm
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Hm... NASA just released a 30m SRTM to the public. Can this be used, or will it be huge in size?
http://www.nasa.gov/content/us-releases-shuttle-land-elevation-data-to-aid-global-climate-resilience/#.VCG2gfl_vgw (http://www.nasa.gov/content/us-releases-shuttle-land-elevation-data-to-aid-global-climate-resilience/#.VCG2gfl_vgw)
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Hm... NASA just released a 30m SRTM to the public. Can this be used, or will it be huge in size?
http://www.nasa.gov/content/us-releases-shuttle-land-elevation-data-to-aid-global-climate-resilience/#.VCG2gfl_vgw (http://www.nasa.gov/content/us-releases-shuttle-land-elevation-data-to-aid-global-climate-resilience/#.VCG2gfl_vgw)
Awesome!
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From 2000. 90m Isn't that about the resolution we have in Outerra now?....
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Yes, think so. As this new dataset is 30m, it would mean a serious improvement in accuracy!
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From NASA`s website:
SRTM V2 released
NASA has released version 2 of the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission digital topographic data (also known as the "finished" version). Version 2 is the result of a substantial editing effort by the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and exhibits well-defined water bodies and coastlines and the absence of spikes and wells (single pixel errors), although some areas of missing data ('voids') are still present. The Version 2 directory also contains the vector coastline mask derived by NGA during the editing, called the SRTM Water Body Data (SWBD), in ESRI Shapefile format.
The data may be obtained through this URL: http://dds.cr.usgs.gov/srtm/ (http://dds.cr.usgs.gov/srtm/) and go to the directory where both version 1 and version 2 directories may be found. Please read the appropriate documentation, also found in the directories.
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I think one of the biggest improvements would be in refined coastlines as well.
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Oh... I only skimmed it and saw 90m on that page...
I'm always up for higher a higher rez as long as it doesn't have too many spikes all over the place (which was said to be smoothed out). But... with higher resolutions, don't buildings and trees become more of a problem?
Also, if the implementation of a higher resolution would automatically adjust already placed objects and roads, that would be great (but of course not perfect). Or allow a feature for "aligning objects and roads to terrain" in mass, for the users to easily fix what they want.
But... I don't think Cameni is up for implementing a higher resolution for the whole planet (again?). We've been at 90m for a long time. I'm guessing it might stay there.
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90 is fine by me. Buildings and trees should not be a problem. NASA know what its doing! (I hope! :P)
Road data is not in the SRTM, thats just elevation. OSM integration should take care of any land-transport network + buildings.
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From that page:
Lower resolution SRTM topographic data having 90-meter (295-feet) pixels were released publicly in 2003 for many parts of the world, providing a global standard for many applications. The new data increase the detail to 30-meter (98-foot) pixel spacing, now revealing the full resolution of the world’s landforms as originally measured by SRTM.
I think it would be really nice to have more detailed coastlines, height definition with rivers, mountains and such. Of course there's lots of terrain where increased resolution is less interesting (oceans?). I think it has been mentioned earlier on the forums that the challenge is to merge the datasets and get them to transition nicely.
I'd rather get multiple light sources, clouds and such things first, but it's nice to know that somewhere in the future this dataset can be used to improve the accuracy of the world..
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Road data is not in the SRTM, thats just elevation. OSM integration should take care of any land-transport network + buildings.
I was talking about our objects and roads. :P
If the terrain gets updated, there's a chance things could get buried. It's happened before.
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Global 30m data aren't available yet, they will be released over the next 12 months. I expect also a new release of the Aster dataset, which can supposedly reach higher quality since it processes many more ongoing satellite runs and gets refined over time (V1 was unusable though).
I would expect that a 30m dataset (resampled to ~38m) will be at least 3 or 4 times larger than the current 90m one (~76m). Impractical for a tech demo, but it will surely find its way into OT simulators.
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Global 30m data aren't available yet, they will be released over the next 12 months. I expect also a new release of the Aster dataset, which can supposedly reach higher quality since it processes many more ongoing satellite runs and gets refined over time (V1 was unusable though).
I would expect that a 30m dataset (resampled to ~38m) will be at least 3 or 4 times larger than the current 90m one (~76m). Impractical for a tech demo, but it will surely find its way into OT simulators.
Or you could just put it on a torrent. I hate torrents, but I got a downloader or whatever its called just to get the full terrain set easily, and I've been hosting it ever since.
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Impractical for a tech demo, but it will surely find its way into OT simulators.
So... You're talking for use for people's custom needs and not for even the in-game progressive download even in the full version?
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Full version of what? A game (or the tech demo) doesn't necessarily need a 30m dataset. I'm saying that the quality (and size) of the dataset can be chosen depending on what's the target application.
Speaking of OT tech demo/Anteworld - as you wrote, there will be differences in heights. A 30m dataset could be made downloadable as a separate planet though, to not mix it.
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Yeah, I kind of meant the full version of Anteworld (I think) or full version of OT (as in non-tech demo).
You mean they (the datasets) can't possibly even be blended? 90m worked to smoothly attach to 30m at the edges?
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30m dataset is a global one too, it would supersede the old. Changed source terrain will also alter the fractal generator, there may be boulders elsewhere etc. Buildings and roads are currently positioned globally, so they would have to be snapped back to the new terrain, + manual adjustments.
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30m dataset is a global one too, it would supersede the old. Changed source terrain will also alter the fractal generator, there may be boulders elsewhere etc. Buildings and roads are currently positioned globally, so they would have to be snapped back to the new terrain, + manual adjustments.
Hmmmmmm..... Even so, it might be something to think of, to do it now and get it over with early, rather than be semi-locked into the 90m.
Maybe at the same time as you finally go 64bit?
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No need to force a 50GB dataset to everyone who wants to test a tech demo. Even with progressive download, there's the increased bandwidth and the effect it has on the fluidity of the experience.
Games made on OT may use even coarser dataset.
For simulation platform we would almost certainly use the 30m dataset as the default "planet".
Anyway, it's all moot until the 30m source data actually exist and are of sufficient quality.
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You would love the size of X-planes data. Its been boggling minds for years. Not to even mention the additional "HD" data! ;D
I seriously got an additional Hard Drive just for X-plane and FSX. :o
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For simulation platform we would almost certainly use the 30m dataset as the default "planet".
Anyway, it's all moot until the 30m source data actually exist and are of sufficient quality.
Ok. Does that mean Anteworld?... or no?
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No need to force a 50GB dataset to everyone who wants to test a tech demo
Sounds like those guys just aren't committed enough!
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I am following outerra since years, and the improvements in the views are HUGE since the very begining.
Your big work and our big waiting time totally worth.
But for me the more important things your engine need now is a more accurate source in terms of terrain data and colour data.
Actually Outerra use 500 m pics for colors, this is great for the begining of the NON monotone world as before was, but still is a lack in the color richness the world should have.
In the same way, i see the 90 meter terrain resolution as a begining of your tech, but also still a lack in terms of terrrain accuracy.
Improving this in a (lets say) 100 m pic resolution and 30 m terrain data would mean anther BIG jump in how outerra looks.
Imaging this working together with your tools (probably improved in the future), fractal terrain detail, customizable trees system, biomes, roads, etc.. Practically, any user would be able to reproduce their real place in this virtual world with high detail and accuracy.
And more if we talk about the future tools, if you ad for example fractal modifications based in geo maps.
So i can see all the advantages, and would be big. Also you can think in the posibilitie of put the high definition version for the pay version and keep the old for free. This can also be the push some people would need for support the proyect.
Also for posible developers interested in buy the engine would be a very good thing see outerra being so accurate in world definition. Basically any developer interested in simulation would have all the base for begin. DOnt doubt the future simulators based in your amazing engine will have high resolution data (i remember myself playing fsx with certain places in 5 m terrain data and 1 m real texture back in 2005 and we are in 2014).
Its true as you said, anteworld actually is just a demo for show the tech. But i dont think this make a high resolution version pointless. It would be the oportunity to show all the tech potential to everybody, also the demos are for that.
And seeing also at the cons. Yes, more space, more time for download. Maybe add some server. But for me the advantages would be much more than the cons (they would look like a minor problem, because Basically, nothing would improve the outerra views more in just one step than that change). Because all is adaptable. We can just wait a bit more to download new places, we can create torrents dividing the world in continets for download too, some more server can be added, etc.
I think even if you are about to create rivers, lakes, and road system, would be better to do in a base of high res, so you will not need to rework it in the future. Because you are already working in the future. (lets say you decide not to improve datasets in 2015, in 2 years you will do and needing to rework all probably).
This is my humble point of view.
Keep the great work.
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Vector data are modifying the surrounding terrain, so they should work with both 90m and 30m data. However, complete 30m data will be only available after September 2015, according to USGS.
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Vector data are modifying the surrounding terrain, so they should work with both 90m and 30m data. However, complete 30m data will be only available after September 2015, according to USGS.
Ops. well, even better then. You will have always the choice of change terrain quality after all future vector data adds.
One year until 30m resolution is avaiable is a lot of time. Who knows the status of the engine by then. But i am sure the visual improve using 30m terrain and less meter picture quality would be huge.
By the way. Did you think in accept cripto currencies for buy outerra?
In the traders places i work i always chat about how great outerra is to everybody. If you accept bitcoin or litecoin as payment would be a nice publicity. I would try everybody there buy and support the engine buying it with the coins ))
Anyway i will still doing publicity there and everytime the market give me a break i say i will fly outerra.
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15GB Outerra: Console Peasant
60GB Outerra: Glorious PC Master Race
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15GB Outerra: Console Peasant
60GB Outerra: Glorious PC Master Race
LOL
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But seriously, I think 30m is a good measure to deal with. If people do not want to test a 60GB tech-demo, fine, they can just download the piece they want to test.
90m is good to demonstrate some altitude flying, but to demonstrate something ground-based, like a demo for projects like Tropico, Project Reality, Ruse, 30m is the way to go!
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Well, id like to see something like ProjectReality in OT ... just routine border control missions would be awesome whyte that view ...
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:)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Outerra/comments/2x6zrj/newcomer_questions_hidef_terrain_insets_trees/
By the end of this year there should be a global 30m dataset available that should make the data much better. We expect it to be about 3-4 times larger than the current dataset, but well worth it. You can actually combine the datasets, like right now the data are combined from 90m land data and 1km ocean depth data.
3D trees are a necessity, but it's clear we need to optimize them to be able to render such vast amounts as needed for OT.
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A lot of stuff in that thread is really good (especially if 30m is officially coming to Outerra).
But also, after seeing the old amusing issues that new data caused with already placed objects and roads, the automatic adjustment of object/road alignment to terrain is really needed.
:))
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:)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Outerra/comments/2x6zrj/newcomer_questions_hidef_terrain_insets_trees/
By the end of this year there should be a global 30m dataset available that should make the data much better. We expect it to be about 3-4 times larger than the current dataset, but well worth it. You can actually combine the datasets, like right now the data are combined from 90m land data and 1km ocean depth data.
3D trees are a necessity, but it's clear we need to optimize them to be able to render such vast amounts as needed for OT.
Happy ending thread!
Cameni is amazing. He always see the right point even if at the begining see the obvious cons (they have the responsability to fight against those cons, its totally understable).
I have a humble idea. I NEVER had the all 14 GB dataset until the last week. I downloaded from Torrents.
So now i moved data to propper Outerra directory, and they are not avaiable for the people who want to download.
So, maybe would be posible to put an option to customize the data folder? So i can choose my download Torrent folder and all the data can be avaible again for the people.
Of course we have always the option to change it in torrent too.
I dont know if its even posible for the future, to use torrent for the small downloads the users need during playing. If we educate people to use the folders options correctly. I am sure people dont mind to share outerra files in torrent while play or have computer On. Or outerra can "make" own "torrent" system for share those files. Having always a second option with the actual servers. But at least the peer to peer system would absorb some huge demand between the own users internet power.
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30 m. will be another big jump.
take time dreaming about the different colors of the seasons. But the tones go together to vegetation and there's plenty to do.
February every year in China ,, Luoping is a small county in eastern Yunnan, China, located about 228 kilometers northeast of Kunming near the border of Yunnan Guizhou and Guangxi provinces. In early spring, when the yellow rapeseed flowers
(https://www.imageshost.eu/images/2015/02/28/14_luoping-1525255B225255D.jpg)
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Looks like some places in southern Slovakia. =D Those little hills are interesting. If there werent any people and structures, id say they're much bigger than that.
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I have a humble idea. I NEVER had the all 14 GB dataset until the last week. I downloaded from Torrents.
So now i moved data to propper Outerra directory, and they are not avaiable for the people who want to download.
So, maybe would be posible to put an option to customize the data folder? So i can choose my download Torrent folder and all the data can be avaible again for the people.
Of course we have always the option to change it in torrent too.
I wanted to add an option to redirect terrain data to a different path, as we often have multiple instances and test versions that could share these data, but I didn't think it very usable for people. For torrents it would be usable, albeit there should be a bundled torrent installer that also sets everything up.
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I have a humble idea. I NEVER had the all 14 GB dataset until the last week. I downloaded from Torrents.
So now i moved data to propper Outerra directory, and they are not avaiable for the people who want to download.
So, maybe would be posible to put an option to customize the data folder? So i can choose my download Torrent folder and all the data can be avaible again for the people.
Of course we have always the option to change it in torrent too.
I wanted to add an option to redirect terrain data to a different path, as we often have multiple instances and test versions that could share these data, but I didn't think it very usable for people. For torrents it would be usable, albeit there should be a bundled torrent installer that also sets everything up.
The Outerra mod site uses bit torrent sync, which I always thought might useful for Outerra in some way, some day.
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So has any progress been made on this front??
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We compiled the first version some time ago, from incomplete 30m coverage (missing northern Africa and parts of Asia) and our commercial partners already started using it. There are several things that need fixing, for example near our startup area in lower Himalayas there are some large holes in mountains, apparently because 30m data weren't corrected as the 90m ones.
Btw in case you missed it, here's an evaluation of 30m data in OT: http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=3309.0
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Bumped into these pictures showing 90m and 30m.
At 30m I see the outlines of a highway. Plus things get quite bumpy. I wonder how you clean this up! =|
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a625/Multitesseract/SRTM_zpsubldtp8z.jpg)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a625/Multitesseract/ASTER_zpsl4k9o4pd.jpg)
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We don't. Bumpiness is good (real), and highways will be overlaid anyway.
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We don't. Bumpiness is good (real), and highways will be overlaid anyway.
Interesting.
I vaguely remember another post that mentioned the fractal refinement getting a bit "overexcited" with the higher resolution data, so that's what I was thinking of when asking the question.
I'm looking forward to seeing it all in action.