Outerra forum

User mods, screenshots & videos => Static models => Topic started by: KW71 on November 27, 2014, 07:00:36 pm

Title: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on November 27, 2014, 07:00:36 pm
Hi!

I'd like to share this model:



http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=3058.0


(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10343488_1394613324163981_3722955204697944444_n.jpg?oh=b1eec13cee0e0499d01da0218f379ceb&oe=5520567D&__gda__=1428052426_73b898752e3e55412e7f961be1f30084)

Instructions

- Unzip the Chapala_Lake.zip file.
- Install the .otx as usual.
- Start OT and load the spawn point Chapala_Lake. (Due this is a huge mesh, if you start in a place far from where the model was placed, the lake won't be there, till you reach the origin point; is LOD related).
- Play whit your atmosphere an fog settings. Solar day have also a great impact in the way the "water" looks.



Download link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sl2x2acy5krkkp2/CHAPALA_LAKE.zip?dl=0
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on November 28, 2014, 02:50:15 am
You can add cache/campos files in the .otx too, the format only unzip data in the user/outerra folder :)



Edit :

Tested it, and it was even better than what I expected. I'm stuck with a shitty laptop until next week, but even in the gorgeous resolution of 800*600, everything low or off, it looks great. I will even say that it looks better than what most of the simulations engines usually render :)

I have done a little test and put your model next to my Talkeetna scene. The result is good, even with this crappy setting :

(http://i.imgur.com/7WLDgBH.jpg)

However, the model is indeed very large and hard to select, so I have two questions :

I'll be honest, it's in my opinion one of the best models ever produced for Outerra, because it opens a wild range of possibilities.
Oh, and I almost forgot :

(http://www.guidedesbieres.com/photos/141-biere-trappiste-chimay-rouge.jpg)(http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/roasted-peanuts-bowl-22296806.jpg)

 ;)
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on November 28, 2014, 08:28:09 am
"You can add cache/campos files in the .otx too, the format only unzip data in the user/outerra folder"
Great, thanks! Updated.

"Is there a point or distance from wich you can select the model to move it or modify it's elevation easely?"
Place this mesh was  tricky;  I ended adjusting the elevation in Blender.


Burp!!! Sorry... the beer.


"Is it possible for you to make smaller sizes of water objects, with different shapes?"
Any shape, I guess yes; any size... In the end every thing should be possible (the outerra guys made a complete world), but the placement is an issue. the ability for scaling within OT would really help.

Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: PytonPago on November 28, 2014, 11:00:55 am
... the ability for scaling within OT would really help.

 ... yes, but still, the texture size would shrink too - most of smaller lakes would need still a smaller model.
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on November 28, 2014, 02:34:43 pm
Of course, but scaling models + tiling textures would help. In the end the size is just in our minds. Kms, mts, cms is just a concept when you are modeling. The point here is that is not easy manipulate big meshes in OT.
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: PytonPago on November 28, 2014, 03:20:39 pm
Of course, but scaling models + tiling textures would help. In the end the size is just in our minds. Kms, mts, cms is just a concept when you are modeling. The point here is that is not easy manipulate big meshes in OT.

... would be interesting if a special visual mode could be added, that would allow to see the main models pivot point then. Doe is true, that once under terrain, it gets really bad.
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: M7 on November 28, 2014, 03:51:45 pm
Maybe when the static object window is open, then all object set ingame have their pivot visible, maybe white pivot. Then when you select the pivot , It switch to the colored version?
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: PytonPago on November 29, 2014, 02:37:20 am
Actually, a small icon above it would be nice too (something like units stats on strategies games - maybe even separate icons for all the types - general objects, air, sea, ground vehicles -- and the black box object when its out). Nothing extra big, just to see it better in higher altitudes, when stuff is numerous in the scene.
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on November 29, 2014, 05:06:44 am
I've run some test using the alt+7 tool. The mesh is more big than what I thought, litterally hundred of kilometers long. It's usually hard to move a big object but in this case, it's next to impossible  :(

I placed the lake mesh on the Mt McKinley summit but even with that clear point of reference, I couldn't manage to grab and move it. Smaller mesh, however, should be easier to manipulate. I still managed to fill the river next to Talkeetna, and it looks really good  :D

(http://i.imgur.com/UOVTjuV.jpg)
(Still in crappy setting/resolution, I can't wait to go back on my main computer)
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: PytonPago on November 29, 2014, 06:25:47 am
So much island !  ;D
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: HiFlyer on November 29, 2014, 06:47:27 am
Excellent start!

Now we need a way to make the trees respect waterlines.
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on November 29, 2014, 07:21:50 am
So much island !  ;D

It's close to the real one  ;)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/3_Rivers_Joining_at_Talkeetna,_Alaska.jpg)

Excellent start!

Now we need a way to make the trees respect waterlines.

Considering the fact that the water mesh overlap the land, I can use a simple large blank road to supress trees in the water.  :)
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: PytonPago on November 29, 2014, 02:40:27 pm
I remember an acient video where a terrain mod. tool and tree caster was ... they will be sure back once the layering work on OT is finished. 

That land must be a swampy piece ... or are those sedimented formations ?
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on November 29, 2014, 03:05:44 pm

That land must be a swampy piece ... or are those sedimented formations ?

Huge variations in water flow and temperature variations between seasons. So yes, the Talkeetna region seems to be a mix between pine forests and a big swamp :)
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on November 29, 2014, 04:00:56 pm
Looks good! And delete the trees with roads, good idea!


A hope vector rivers arrive soon. Making one lake is fun, but fill the entire world with this method... ufff!!!

In the meantime, roads tool can be used. I made this road substituting one of the current textures (05.dds and 05n.dds, C:\Program Files (x86)\Outerra\Anteworld\textures\terrain\ground), which is used for gravel roads:


(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/l/t1.0-9/10351524_1399160933709220_8667911425296097821_n.jpg?oh=8ea60c27909aa751ec28a4969f96f9ad&oe=550C8D24)


Then I made a "river"... an opaque one... sadly.


(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10609575_1399264880365492_8851331700552973578_n.jpg?oh=877a3244a67de2674bd846ae8d1a606a&oe=551D0FB7&__gda__=1423177472_c1f7ab755f028c43f15d3efa1ef5244e)
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: M7 on November 29, 2014, 04:47:29 pm
wow that stone road looks really good!!!
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: PytonPago on November 30, 2014, 02:04:37 am
great texture for a tourist road !
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on November 30, 2014, 03:21:57 pm
Wow!  :D

***

Edit :

After few additionnal tests, I think the water mesh method could be really good as a temporary solution for flight-sim oriented sceneries like mines. As mentionned previously, the Chapala mesh is really good but too big to be exploited simply.
I found a way to move it and manipulate it but the insane size of the model make it not usable in my case. Because rivers trend to slowly go downward, a mesh of this size will either :

It's possible to modify the model orientation, but with a mesh of this size, a degree modification in the slope at the point of origin result of a hundred meters elevation at the other side of the model  :(.

I'm convinced it will be possible to get a good result with a limited set of various smaller mesh, even really simple (rectangles, circles - of different size), wich could be placed and oriented easily.

Would you be interested to expand your work in that direction ?  :)
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on December 02, 2014, 03:54:58 am
(http://i.imgur.com/4DWiYlT.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/JZ1eRhC.jpg)
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on December 02, 2014, 09:32:46 am
Hi, Acetone!

 I can see a lot of roads on stuff in the second screen shot... Looks really nice! have you made all this?

Are you working in some specific project?

Depending on what you are doing, I could find a way to accomplish it. Indeed i have made several approaches before modeling the entire lake.
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on December 02, 2014, 10:39:04 am
Hi, Acetone!

 I can see a lot of roads on stuff in the second screen shot... Looks really nice! have you made all this?

Are you working in some specific project?

Depending on what you are doing, I could find a way to accomplish it. Indeed i have made several approaches before modeling the entire lake.

The screenshot if from my Talkeetna scene (Alaska). You can find the forum topic here : http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=2855.0 (http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=2855.0)
It's also hosted as an .otx file in OuterraMods (http://www.outerramods.com/mods/alaska-scenery-talkeetna).

As you can see, it requires a lot of additionnal models created or imported by the community. And it's a lot of work, the high altitude screenshot only cover half of the area, everything has been hand placed. I'm not afraid to spend some time to get things looking good  ;D

As I have said, a limited set of smaller sized water mesh will cover most . If you find a way to make it, I (and I think a lot of people) would be really happy :)
I've a really limited knowledge in 3D modelling, so I don't know if it's complex or even possible.
It's not a good global solution, indeed, but for smaller scale scenes it will be great until we get a proper in-engine rivers and lakes support  ;D
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on December 02, 2014, 02:32:17 pm
I really would like to do this, but there is one point to consider. I get to model meshes that can fit in almost any scenery and you get to fill it... We both put a lot o effort on  it, and a week or a couple of months later, voila!!! the support for rivers and lakes is released by OT team... We could see our work flooded with "real water".  See my point?

Would be good to know how far is that possibility. If it is not near, I would love to do it... really!
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on December 02, 2014, 04:38:07 pm
I really would like to do this, but there is one point to consider. I get to model meshes that can fit in almost any scenery and you get to fill it... We both put a lot o effort on  it, and a week or a couple of months later, voila!!! the support for rivers and lakes is released by OT team... We could see our work flooded with "real water".  See my point?

Would be good to know how far is that possibility. If it is not near, I would love to do it... really!

That's a really good point ! I'm already concerned by this problem : if the Outerra team manage to add OpenStreet Maps road import, all the stuff I have already done will be mostly broken. I will need to make my roads and the imported ones link seemlesly, wich will be a lot of work. That's why it was a relief to learn from Cameni than the next road system will be compatible with my existing work :)

Water mesh will be a temporary solution, that's why I don't think you should spend too much time on it (for example, don't try to do a single mesh to perfectly fill all the Talkeetna river, like you have done with the Chapala lake). For the official lake and rivers vector support, I'm not even sure the dev team can give a precise answer but I bet on at least six month - one year before we see it appear in the engine.

It's up to you to see how much time you want to spend on it  :)
I've personally chosen to see what I do in Outerra as a kind of mandala : of course it can desapear at some point, but at least, some people (including me) will enjoy it  ;D
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on December 03, 2014, 02:51:10 pm
O.k. Let's do it. I can't put so much time on this, so be patient, please.

Does anybody know the biggest size that can be handled in OT without  problems?
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: PytonPago on December 04, 2014, 05:01:27 am
O.k. Let's do it. I can't put so much time on this, so be patient, please.

Does anybody know the biggest size that can be handled in OT without  problems?

 Not sure ... but even if there is a limit, segmenting stuff in different LODs (well in this case, two would be probably enough) in the proper dimensions should work to overcome that.
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on December 04, 2014, 07:37:50 am
O.k. Let's do it. I can't put so much time on this, so be patient, please.

Thank you very much, and don't worry, we don't have any deadline  ;D
Also, if you see that it may be too complicated and time consuming, drop it. I don't want you to waste too much of your time on it  :(
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on December 05, 2014, 05:33:41 pm
Hi, Acetone!

Here it is. Is not perfect, but will do the job.

I guess 1 square km. is handleable.

I knew that the biggest problem would be the seams. Under certain light conditions and depending on your view angle, you would notice the union between two meshes, no matter how well aligned this are.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10676212_1402775703347743_4195558943179173294_n.jpg?oh=cd9a7872de3377816f913fc0c547d854&oe=550EC5C2&__gda__=1426670587_39ef15250fba7014cfedb23d463b838a)

I can't use opacity maps to degratate the seams, because I couldn't use normal maps. So I came up with this shape:

(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/1271227_1402775753347738_5082842188112236226_o.jpg)

But is hard to tie two meshes; is confusing.

So I will give you a square dummy; install this .otx first, place your meshes and after that install the final version. It will overwrite the previous; the seams won't disappear, but will be less noticeable.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10256511_1402775713347742_7868645053156143742_n.jpg?oh=eb029254e5b8d5d76eb4d04a014a6330&oe=5518FD17&__gda__=1428042311_ec464e1f873f2680a0cd0e1dbaaa4267)

(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/q86/p417x417/10847912_1402775733347740_9001940981087211783_n.jpg?oh=524e2ca8fcf4c164cdefb1b6221e26a9&oe=54FE5BC6)

One mesh is enough to cover Vulcan Point, Taal Volcano - Luzon, Filipinas.

(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1656024_1402775736681073_4420388276757325166_n.jpg?oh=f4cc89cdf60d44dc45e17ce16a6ea547&oe=5518EE58)

(https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1924332_1402775700014410_1978361803870917190_n.jpg?oh=fd10805b0bf3bdf015ac9ddf77a1b705&oe=54FFBB0B)

Here is the LINK:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qviadhbcwn16yhw/WATER.zip?dl=0



Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: PytonPago on December 06, 2014, 12:20:40 am
OMG ... looks awesome ! I like to have our river here. ( sadly, would have to crater-gun out the basin )
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on December 06, 2014, 06:52:18 am
Hi, Acetone!

Here it is. Is not perfect, but will do the job.

I guess 1 square km. is handleable.
I knew that the biggest problem would be the seams. Under certain light conditions and depending on your view angle, you would notice the union between two meshes, no matter how well aligned this are.
I can't use opacity maps to degratate the seams, because I couldn't use normal maps. So I came up with this shape:
But is hard to tie two meshes; is confusing.
So I will give you a square dummy; install this .otx first, place your meshes and after that install the final version. It will overwrite the previous; the seams won't disappear, but will be less noticeable.
One mesh is enough to cover Vulcan Point, Taal Volcano - Luzon, Filipinas.


Hello KW71 !

It's amazing !

You had a really good idea with the dummy version, it makes placement a lot more easier, and your solution to hide the seams is really clever :)

I've run few tests in the Talkeetna scene. So far it's perfect, but there is only one minor problem related to water opacity of the final version.
Two screenshots makes it more obvious :

Dummy mesh :
(http://i.imgur.com/XAQY8ST.jpg)

Final mesh :
(http://i.imgur.com/InjuHA8.jpg)

As you can see, the the texture opacity in the final version makes the terrain under the water too much visible, more even if the mesh is really close to the terrain (wich happens a lot during my tests.
I tried to edit the f0 and roughness value in the .MTL file but didn't manage to solve the problem  :(


Thanks a lot for this nice solution for the lack of inland water, I'm going to fill the entire region wich has a lot of rivers and small lakes :)
I hope other fellow Outerrans will use it too !

Here is a small preview version of it : http://www.mediafire.com/download/fazyt5kxi8nav28/Alaska_pack-Water_test.otx (http://www.mediafire.com/download/fazyt5kxi8nav28/Alaska_pack-Water_test.otx) :)

Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: aWac9 on December 06, 2014, 09:40:32 am
I remembered the video from Queenstown Airport where the lake was dry .. I have given a new lease with the mesh of kw71.
better 720pHD
http://youtu.be/daXIZGJ7L08

Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on December 06, 2014, 11:08:45 am
Acetone:


That's very easy to fix.

- Don't change F0, because is fixed for water.

- If you alter roughness, seams could become more evident.

-Change the fourth value of color; that's the opacity. I guess now is 0.1; try 0.3.

"color" : "0.6,0.6,.0.6,0.3",


aWac9:

Nice video! I guess you used the Chapala mesh, not the individual meshes... am I right?
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: aWac9 on December 06, 2014, 12:00:45 pm
yes it is.
I have a witness  https://www.flickr.com/photos/awac9/15774164939/
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/awac9/15937169721/in/photostream/)

 ;) :)<
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on December 06, 2014, 01:23:28 pm
Acetone:

That's very easy to fix.
- Don't change F0, because is fixed for water.
- If you alter roughness, seams could become more evident.
-Change the fourth value of color; that's the opacity. I guess now is 0.1; try 0.3.

"color" : "0.6,0.6,.0.6,0.3",

Thank you :)
The water is more visible but a bit too greenish.
(http://i.imgur.com/1YsOVbw.jpg)

I did a test with the Chapala lake DIFF.dds file and realised why you didn't keep it for this version : the transition between the meshes is way more visible.
(http://i.imgur.com/5hF3OKt.jpg)

Do you know if there is a way to make the water looking a bit more blue? I tried to edit the Water_diff.dds in Photoshop but didn't find a way to fix this problem :(
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on December 06, 2014, 01:40:11 pm
It will look great!!!

Same solution:

"color" : "0.6,0.6,.0.6,0.3",

The three first values are for red, green, blue multiplier.

The transitions won't look the same. Is a diferent case:

- Chapala have only 3 layers.
- This one have more layers and rotated, to minimize seams.
- This rotation will cause different shading also. There are two triangles on each square and is the way the engine calculates shading.

If you are ok whit seams, try to leav the dummy instead (3 layers), and change the values on the dummy .mtl.


Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: Acetone on December 06, 2014, 03:16:02 pm
It will look great!!!

Same solution:

"color" : "0.6,0.6,.0.6,0.3",

The three first values are for red, green, blue multiplier.

The transitions won't look the same. Is a diferent case:

- Chapala have only 3 layers.
- This one have more layers and rotated, to minimize seams.
- This rotation will cause different shading also. There are two triangles on each square and is the way the engine calculates shading.

If you are ok whit seams, try to leav the dummy instead (3 layers), and change the values on the dummy .mtl.

Thanks a lot !

(http://i.imgur.com/S4HNNUd.jpg)

I ended up increasing opacity a lot : seams are less visible that way and rivers in Alaska are muddy and not really clear :)
I still need to tweak colors a little, but I'm really happy with the result so far!

I ended up learning a lot about materials properties in Outerra thanks to you  ;D

Here is a link of my modified version : http://www.mediafire.com/download/zt3owmwjmmd0p3m/water_tweaked.otx (http://www.mediafire.com/download/zt3owmwjmmd0p3m/water_tweaked.otx)
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on December 06, 2014, 08:49:47 pm
Hi, Acetone!!!

I'm glad to help

My mistake with the diffuse texture. I forgot to made a final adjustment I made for Chapala. Give it a try also to this new .mtl

It is very important that you play with the sun time / day of year/ and your angle of view before you decide the settings are ok, because this will affect the appearance a lot.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/qviadhbcwn16yhw/WATER.zip?dl=0
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: 2eyed on December 26, 2014, 09:45:14 am
Made a few efforts with KW71's mesh. It's a nice idea but sadly, it only looks good for specific viewing angles. So my question goes out to the devs: could you possibly do something similar with animated surface and more consistent lighting in the meantime, while we are waiting for the far away vector lakes and rivers?
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: KW71 on December 26, 2014, 08:52:04 pm
Hi, 2eyed!

Check this new thread:

http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=3104.0

Is far from perfect, but is a little bit better.
Title: Re: Chapala Lake Mesh
Post by: 2eyed on December 27, 2014, 04:43:14 am
Ok, fine, will try that!