Outerra forum
User mods, screenshots & videos => Aircraft => Topic started by: bomber on May 22, 2015, 03:00:31 pm
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http://target4today.com/_posted_files_/Cesna_172/c172.Levi.otx
New update on the Cessna 172A
Some weight balance corrections to take into account unusable fuel in the tanks....oil usage added
The major news is that it has a new 'fuel system' that models gravity feed and negative 'G' effects.
Guys... for those with joysticks what I really need is for you to spin her, as there are a few ways for which to move on this and I'm not sure if I've got it correct... I need feedback on this.
Need a serious testing regime in Outerra, with genuine passion for the task, a professional approach to documenting the findings and the gumption to call a spade a spade.... no flannel..
Regards
Simon
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Nice done.
Now what i see the flying is more real. If i turn all to the right, the plane steer turn fast, but the plane itself take his time to turn. Slowly compared with the previous version of the plane (probably previous was so arcade).
Another nice thing is to see how my poor little Cesna seems to be about to explode vibrating while high speed descending )))
Now what we need is a time multiplier, so we can choose x2, x4, x8.. Etc. Coz Cessna is a little bit slow sometimes for long distances
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Thanks again for all of your hard work, Simon.
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great .. more realistic, right turns and braking, perhaps missing some power
great job, thank you very much sir.
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I'm confused. I can't even fly now. Is the steering inverted on purpose? I push all the throttle, the mixture is at 100, and when I take off I just can't fly high enough.
I uninstalled (deleted) all previous cessna versions installed, (included OT) to be shure I'm flying the right one.
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Sorry to hear you're having trouble KW...
I'm sure you know already but here are some things to consider and tips.
1) 145hp isn't a lot
2) 130kts top speed at sea level doesn't set any records
3) allow the speed to build up after takeoff.
4) gentle climbs
Frankly this plane doesn't pull up any trees for me.
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Nice work :)
- Using keyboard (no joystick ATM) I had to deactivate the wing level autopilot, because the effect is too visible. I guess this will be tied to a on/off switch once we get the extended control scheme, and it's a nice feature once you are in cruise altitude. But for take-off it makes the plane hard to control.
- On this model, the animated elements (flaps, ailerons, rudder, pedals) are not working. These elements are using various JBSIM values in the script file, so I guess these are different in the new fdm. The ones concerned are:
fcs/rudder-pos-rad
fcs/rudder-pos-rad
fcs/rudder-pos-rad
fcs/flap-pos-rad
fcs/left-aileron-pos-rad
fcs/right-aileron-pos-rad
fcs/aileron-cmd-norm
fcs/elevator-cmd-normAs other users noticed, rudder control is inverted. Not sure if it's normal and more close to the real plane.
Since it's still a WIP, it's not really a problem :)
Here is a better sound pack : it's using your default script file (the wing level autopilot is off on this one). More engine sounds, flaps.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/wn1ylll1110lam0/C172_sounds_Bomber_FDM.zip (http://www.mediafire.com/download/wn1ylll1110lam0/C172_sounds_Bomber_FDM.zip)
Just unzip in Outerra/packages/Levi/c172
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Arh yes.... My focus is flight model and adding auto pilot did require some property name changes.. Fuel tank gauge is also wrong.
Gonna download the zip cheers
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Ok just flown using my joystick for the first time in a while and found both my rudder and elevator inverted, so went to the control panel and changed them round...
apart from shocking fps in this update, which almost make it impossible to fly... and a tendency for the plane to slowing turn right, which I'm not noticing in the FG testing.... and also a large 'deadband' on the ailerons which I don't see in FG... Her performance is about as I expected, safe and boring.
Simon
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apart from shocking fps in this update, which almost make it impossible to fly
What GPU/CPU are you using? I've noticed a small performance improvement on the latest version, so it seems strange that you get a really bad framerate with this one...
and a tendency for the plane to slowing turn right, which I'm not noticing in the FG testing....
Isn't that a consequence of the P-factor?
I really like the plane handling. Really slow, it's true, but your FM makes the experience really satisfying, you feel the difference. I hope we will have some weather parameters to modify in the engine in the future, would be really interesting to see how this plane reacts to cross winds or pressure variations, thermals,...
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Yes that might well be the p-factor...
Well jsbsim comes with wind, turbulence etc it's just that we need to have a js script to adjust properties.
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Her performance is about as I expected, safe and boring.
... well, being unsafe its the 208´s job.
(http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Images/AOPA/Home/News/All/2014/September/0915_combat_caravan1.jpg?h=454&w=640)
... or the generic airport obstacle ones:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/40/3b/0c/403b0cf74feaabbcdfffc3cd217ff060.jpg)
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we will 05'42'' flight from Queenstown's airport, and we can appreciate the new features included in the flight model Cessna 172A fellow bomber.
Maybe I noticed some lack of power (T push), but do not know if it must. and another thing that if I noticed in the tail rudder does not help drifting, avoiding the feeling of depth.
720/1080 phd
https://youtu.be/PccaQYixVE0
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As always a very nice video....
We also need a float plane variant if we're to do water landings
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Hi there, and very nice job on the FDM Simon! :)
Here is my version of the Cessna featuring bomber's new FDM and Acetone's sound pack, among other changes and fixes: Download (https://mega.co.nz/#!x49B1RCQ!DxwU7xT5LXQXu8WTSccOx3pIia77za8qPpF7ooxLfm0)
Changelog:
- New package folder structure.
- Bomber's new FDM.
- Acetone's sound pack (interior and exterior sounds switches according to camera positions and doors state (open/closed)):
- Wind
- Avionics
- Flaps
- Engine
- Propeller
- Wing Level AP (turned On when you leave the pilot's seat. Default key: "V")
- Fixed FCS (flight control surfaces) animations.
- Fixed Fuel Quantity gauge.
Note: Due to package folder structure changes, I would recommend you to manually delete the c172 folder in /packages/Levi/ before installing this one.
Simon, apart from the inverted rudder, it seems that I can't steer the plane on ground at low speeds. And even the property to animate the nose gear steering doesn't work anymore. But I guess these issues are easily fixable.
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Ok Levi, i worked on the fdm last evening, to bring the code in-line with the ask13.. I'll check out ground stearage and animation tonight if I get time before going to the pub quiz.
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And welcome back, Levi, long time no-see. :D
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I do not appreciate the nut effect. the plane at takeoff must tend to go left as a result of rotation of the propeller.
Effect nut. The motor turns the propeller in a sense so as Newton's 3rd law, the entire plane will try to spin in the opposite direction (action-reaction). Like the vast majority of aircraft propeller rotates in the direction of clockwise (viewed from the cab), the reaction force is exercised on the left side of the plane in the opposite direction to the rotation of the propeller. In addition, at high power while the plane is on the ground (takeoff), this effect causes the left wheel support more weight than the right, which provides more friction, more resistance and increase the tendency to yaw to the left.
This nut effect is hardly noticeable in straight and level flight cruise.
wake of the propeller
http://www.manualvuelo.com/PBV/PBV19.html
well found levi.
:)
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You're talking about p factor
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/media/PHAK%20-%20Chapter%2004.pdf
page 27...
I assume you're unhappy that it's too little, unfortunately there's no measurement of this effect that I can call on as a guide... We just have too adjust the value that produces it, hopefully a pilot with experience would come forward and say "yeh that's spot on"
I suggest with my next update I'll also detail what property in the flight model to adjust, so as you can have a go yourself until you have the right feel....
regards
Simon
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I am equally happy with Outerra.
I always say you have to go slowly and with good lyrics
any progress is a step towards happiness.
;)
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Do you know which airport is it?
720/1080phd
https://youtu.be/wzEWZZGstr8
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Thanks guys for the welcome back! I really hope to be more active from now on.
Do you know which airport is it?
Milford Sound Airport in New Zealand? :)
Such a beautiful place!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Milford_Sound_Airport_-from_an_aircraft-18Feb2008.jpg)
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Hi there, and very nice job on the FDM Simon! :)
Here is my version of the Cessna featuring bomber's new FDM and Acetone's sound pack, among other changes and fixes: Download (https://mega.co.nz/#!x49B1RCQ!DxwU7xT5LXQXu8WTSccOx3pIia77za8qPpF7ooxLfm0)
Changelog:
- New package folder structure.
- Bomber's new FDM.
- Acetone's sound pack (interior and exterior sounds switches according to camera positions and doors state (open/closed)):
- Wind
- Avionics
- Flaps
- Engine
- Propeller
- Wing Level AP (turned On when you leave the pilot's seat. Default key: "V")
- Fixed FCS (flight control surfaces) animations.
- Fixed Fuel Quantity gauge.
Note: Due to package folder structure changes, I would recommend you to manually delete the c172 folder in /packages/Levi/ before installing this one.
Simon, apart from the inverted rudder, it seems that I can't steer the plane on ground at low speeds. And even the property to animate the nose gear steering doesn't work anymore. But I guess these issues are easily fixable.
Nice, welcome back Levi! :D
Your code is indeed way more good than mine for the sounds :) I still have a touch-down sound if you want, but no rolling sound. I have the impression that the rumble is a bit lower than what it should be.
BTW, the sound is not mine but made by Alfredo Fernandes from Dreamfoil Creations (http://www.dreamfoil-creations.com/). They do a lot of nice heli, so if you have X-plane, you may want to take a look at it :)
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the teacher has a good eye.
levi welcome back, we missed you
You do not know the times I've dreamed of this helicopter propellers turning
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Nice, welcome back Levi! :D
Thanks!
Your code is indeed way more good than mine for the sounds :) I still have a touch-down sound if you want, but no rolling sound. I have the impression that the rumble is a bit lower than what it should be.
You're right on rumble being a bit lower, try this one: c127.js (https://mega.co.nz/#!l9NVHI5K!1LSlWcHfhD9I-d0t8K3LUCrt0pTa_J0QmmO6sY1M1bI)
I've seen the touch-down sound, but since there's no rolling sound, I don't think the result will be too good. I could add the touch-down sound anyways, if you guys want so. :)
the teacher has a good eye.
levi welcome back, we missed you
You do not know the times I've dreamed of this helicopter propellers turning
Thanks for the welcome back!
The ICAO airport code(NZMF) you put in your video was a good hint to guess the location. :))
Oh yeah, the helicopter. I have to continue working on it...
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Now it will not be so easy. there is no evidence, only those who know the world will know to know this amazing place,,, a remote place where the devil lost pants.
Does anyone know of where we talk?
720/1080
https://youtu.be/IX8o3ghjhN8
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aWac9, that place looks very familiar to me. ^-^
So my guess is: Tenzing-Hillary Airport, also known as Lukla Airport, located in eastern Nepal.
(http://walkwithyeti.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Lukla-Airport.jpg)
Btw, nice video there, as usual!
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:( I have to think
the next will be impossible ... I have to gain ,,,I have to gain ...I have to gain
;)
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Now it will not be so easy. there is no evidence, only those who know the world will know to know this amazing place,,, a remote place where the devil lost pants.
Does anyone know of where we talk?
720/1080
https://youtu.be/IX8o3ghjhN8
Fun part is that it was the first scenery created in Outerra, the blue buildings are from here :)
BTW, aWac9, it looks like you have made a lot of nice locations. Would you like to share these?
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Acetona.
for some unknown reason many of the scenarios I've done are very unstable, and are not recommended to install,,,, do not know why I guess sometimes are conflicts of roads, or some mod. especially those of gramofeno etc .. for that reason I have not shared .. but if I want to know do and compress to otx for the community, once they are stable.
send me an email or link on how to do and I send one of my esenarios and your loevalúas,,,, so you see what I mean.
The ideal is to represent the landscape as it is, but I used the island of Agalega as a test of all the mods and maybe you can watch or arrange a nest of conflicts.
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Now it will not be so easy. there is no evidence, only those who know the world will know to know this amazing place,,, a remote place where the devil lost pants.
Does anyone know of where we talk?
720/1080
https://youtu.be/IX8o3ghjhN8
Luklaaaa....still a nice video. Thank you aWac!
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Acetona.
for some unknown reason many of the scenarios I've done are very unstable, and are not recommended to install,,,, do not know why I guess sometimes are conflicts of roads, or some mod. especially those of gramofeno etc .. for that reason I have not shared .. but if I want to know do and compress to otx for the community, once they are stable.
send me an email or link on how to do and I send one of my esenarios and your loevalúas,,,, so you see what I mean.
The ideal is to represent the landscape as it is, but I used the island of Agalega as a test of all the mods and maybe you can watch or arrange a nest of conflicts.
Ok =)
If you need it, here is a quick tutorial to create a single package scenery with only the location you want to share :
- Make a backup of your cache folder in your Outerra user folder (C:/yourname/Outerra)
- Go to your Outerra user folder, open eng.cfg. Set the value for "debug_keys =" to "true"
- Open Outerra, go to the location where the roads and buildings you want to share are.
- Press Alt+i. Some informations will be displayed on the ground, you are looking at the coordinates, which will look like "+x/47/6F/E7/00". This is exactly where the location cache data is stored in your cache folder.
- Explore your scenery to see what cache files are needed. For a medium sized scenery (100/200 km²), you don't need to go deeper than "+x/47/6F" for example.
- Go to your cache folder and copy it somewhere else. Delete all the folders and files that are not a part of the data you are using (the logic path you identified above)
Now you have isolated the cache data of your scenery. Don't forget to identify precisely where the scenery is if you share your data, because it will overwrite anything other users may have done in this area if they install it. It's currently not possible to merge two cache datasets.
To share it, simply create an .otx file:
- Make sure your data is organized in the same logic path than in your Outerra user folder: cache/earth/object/+x/etc.
- Use 7zip or any other compressing software to zip this package. Rename the pack to scenery_name.otx (default is scenery_name.zip) before compressing
You have a ready to share single package of your scenery. Just remember to make a backup of your cache data before testing it.
You can also add campos using the same logic in the .otx (campos/...) to make access to your scenery more easy for users.
To test the package, simply move your personal cache folder to an other location, install the .otx and check if everything is here (http://forum.outerra.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
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Acetone, I promote this post to it's own thread on the Scenery board! 8)
Best regards,
Uriah
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Acetone, I promote this post to it's own thread on the Scenery board! 8)
Best regards,
Uriah
Oh, it's supposed to sit right at the end of the scenery tutorial. You know, the one nobody noticed, even if it's available in the forum :D (but I managed to keep it secret, because it's not finished yet)
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dangerous Airports
What's this?
1080phd
https://youtu.be/hlrxh9N5V-4
Saludos
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That's a very cool airport right there!
And pretty easy to guess ^-^
Courchevel Altiport, France:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4093/4767323655_bbb0464332_b.jpg)
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The next will be untraceable 8)
I find something so difficult that neither levi'll find out ..
I still think ::)
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http://dailynewsdig.com/top-ten-scariest-airport-runways-in-the-world/ (http://dailynewsdig.com/top-ten-scariest-airport-runways-in-the-world/)
... i like Sabas Juancho E. Yrausquin Airport for some reason.
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PytonPango says she likes Saba airport in the Caribbean Netherlands
so I set to work and made a short video of the island, very fast, simple and without any complications.
the length of the runway is too short, the shortest in the world (396 m - 1293 ft) .is 18 m high. above sea level.
Juancho curiosities:
At the airport terminal there is an office building for Winair, immigration and security, a fire department with a fire truck and a tower. The tower is an advisory service only, and do not provide air traffic control. Aviation fuel is not available on the island of Saba.
Do we travel to Saba on a jet? ... No thanks.
1080phd
https://youtu.be/M77J1g_KRe8
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You made a whole scenery there ! Man, aWac9 ... unexpectedly awesome and fast too. Its also interesting how the steep shoreline is flattened in OT due to the terrain-data resolution, still, is an perfect place to try short-landings. Almost like you would try to land on an aircraft-carrier without the hook.
P.S.: ... im not a girl. HISSSSS ... :D (she - he)
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it really is a very dangerous airfield, but it is curious that in his record any accident ever happened.
Mr. PytonPago,, I hope that your wishes are fulfilled, as will be seen in Ural had a clue ... only we lacked a fire truck,, but this mission that I leave to you.
another thing I miss in outerra are two mod a lamp that illuminates at night and to have a night time environment and a palm tree .. you see I also have desires.:)
Let's see how hard it is to land in this tin can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVdaFv6kbkw
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Well, once the illumination-textures are handled properly, then should be no problem to make house-models with them slapped on them. But making some lamps should go (only they needed to be imported as vehicles for having the scripts for them for now, but no problem making a rod and put a light-source on its end in script.)
... true words ... i need to make an fire-truck version of the ural too. =D
Nice find of that landing-video ... kinda scarry too ( making an oculus version of it would resuld in some interesting reactions from people :D ) .
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Well, once the illumination-textures are handled properly, then should be no problem to make house-models with them slapped on them.
When I asked Tonywob about his buildings, he replied that they were designed with emissive textures in mind, and that the vast majority of them would be very simple to illuminate once they became available. It will be even easier because most of his buildings share several basic textures.
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Pretty awesome. i was acually able to "drop a wing" in this one.
heres my few small problems.
rudder is reversed..
Its hard to do a proper takeoff and landing because you can easily get too high AoA before the plane gives you any "feedback". nose comes up as soon as you power on. when landing its easy to pull the nose up too high without getting any effects showing that you're actually stalling. hard to explain it.
other than that it feels pretty great :)
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Also. Speaking to a friend of mine that flies the c172 he told me that the cessna will spin with flaps and some throttle on, but that it will recover even if you keep pulling max elevator. (although opposite rudder and centered ailerons is needed)
Edit: Sorry.. spoke to him again, and it seems like it will also spin without flaps
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I've a simple question on spinning that I've never asked..
In a clockwise spin, which wing is trailing?
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I believe that would be the inner wing of the spin, the one that is stalled. There's always only one wing that is stalled in a spin, the outer wing is still "flying".
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Nobody attempts to model stall forces, there's some unwritten rule that it's too complicated....
I larf in the face of complication.
That said... half the problem with modelling a stall is trying to understand what the heck is actually happening.. and I'm struggling to find a description of creating a stall that's not 2nd hand.
you fly gliders, yes...... could you talk me through a clockwise stall
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Alright. So a spin happens when a wing drops (looses lift) and the other wing keeps flying "around" the stalled wing. But to get it into a spin in the first place it needs some yawing into the stalled wing. A spin is not something that automatically happens every time you stall. I am able to stall an airplane and still keep the wings level using rudder for the most part. all the controls become very sluggish when you approach stall, and it starts to shake quite alot. but a wing usually stalls from the wing root out (wing root has a higher AoA than the wing-tip.), so you will still have some slight control.
But anyways, If i am going to simulate a spin i'm going to put my nose up (engine to idle if it's an engine aircraft) slowly apply full elevator and when i'm quite slow
i will kick full rudder to the direction i want to spin. I will keep holding full elevator and rudder into the spin until i want to recover. i'm not going to do anything with the ailerons, but if i want to keep the spin longer i will add a bit aileron to the opposite side of the spinning to keep it going. when i want to get out of the spin i put elevator back to neutral, and apply full opposite rudder for the rotation to stop. when the rotation slows down and the nose comes down the aircraft will pick up speed and you end up in a steep dive that you have to recover from before you overspeed (an engined aircraft will most likely not have too much problems with overspeeding).
But in the real world a spin would most likely come when you are in a turn and get too slow. the wing drops, and you already have some rotation to get the spin going.
And yes, scripting a flight model is basically mission impossible. Hope this helps somewhat, and if you have any more questions just tell me :)
( a clockwise and an anti-clockwise stall is basically the same. a clockwise stall in a cessna that has throttle on can be a bit more violent becuase of the torque i would guess.. but if you want more information about that i can ask about it)
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Farlander, thanks for the reply, I can't begin to tell you how helpful it's been...
Can I ask you to consider something, with regards your understanding of a stall, and it may sound backwards to you.. It might be that what you've written is genuinely what you believe is happening, you might even have been told this is what's happening by more experienced pilots, or even read it..... But can I ask you to consider that it doesn't quite fit with what it feels like is happening when you personally enter a spin..
I'm quite happy if you say, no Simon my description is how I feel..... or you might say, you know Simon I have had a nagginf feeling that the description doesn't quite tally with how it feels..
And bare in mind it's only for a fraction of a second we're talking about here.
You''ve already explained something to me, like why the Rudder has such a large deflection... say 30 degs left or right, which is massive overkill to what's needed to correct any yawing.
Anyway, just think on the force normal being generated by a wing at hight AoA and the vectors in the X and Z co-ords
Regards
Simon
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Im sorry if there was something i misunderstood... i try my best with my English, but it's not always sufficient.
But what i described was the "procedure" to get a spin in the L-23 and almost any other airplane.
sorry if i misunderstood.
EDIT:
If what you meant to say was that the higher AoA on the inner wing of the spin would create more lift, then that is acually the opposite. The inner wing is stalled out because of the low speed of it and the high AoA it has. it results in lower lift that the outside wing, and more drag than the outside wing.
(http://www.flyinhighokc.com/flyinghandbook/images/Fig4-10.jpg)
The best video we've found demonstrating a spin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzFgqtPVCZ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzFgqtPVCZ0)
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Im sorry if there was something i misunderstood... i try my best with my English, but it's not always sufficient.
But what i described was the "procedure" to get a spin in the L-23 and almost any other airplane.
sorry if i misunderstood.
EDIT:
If what you meant to say was that the higher AoA on the inner wing of the spin would create more lift, then that is acually the opposite. The inner wing is stalled out because of the low speed of it and the high AoA it has. it results in lower lift than the outside wing, and more drag than the outside wing.
(http://www.flyinhighokc.com/flyinghandbook/images/Fig4-10.jpg)
The best video we've found demonstrating a spin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzFgqtPVCZ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzFgqtPVCZ0)
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Farlander, thanks for the reply, I can't begin to tell you how helpful it's been...
Can I ask you to consider something, with regards your understanding of a stall, and it may sound backwards to you.. It might be that what you've written is genuinely what you believe is happening, you might even have been told this is what's happening by more experienced pilots, or even read it..... But can I ask you to consider that it doesn't quite fit with what it feels like is happening when you personally enter a spin..
I'm quite happy if you say, no Simon my description is how I feel..... or you might say, you know Simon I have had a nagginf feeling that the description doesn't quite tally with how it feels..
And bare in mind it's only for a fraction of a second we're talking about here.
You''ve already explained something to me, like why the Rudder has such a large deflection... say 30 degs left or right, which is massive overkill to what's needed to correct any yawing.
Anyway, just think on the force normal being generated by a wing at hight AoA and the vectors in the X and Z co-ords
Regards
Simon
What do you mean how it feels?
I can concur with what farlander is saying.
I would recommend looking at some of the testing done by NASA
https://www.youtube.com/user/NasaCRgis
These videos may help with some of your programming.
Aerodynamics are normally extremely complicated and not intuitive.
So good luck! :)
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Aerodynamics are normally extremely complicated and not intuitive.
This is what I mean.... that it's not intuitve but that the explaination as above attempts to make it intuitive, and because of that gives a false impression of what's actually happening.... yet is good enough because its all happening in a fraction of a second and a pilot doesn't really need to understand the mechanics of the situation..... just what to do in the situation...
So there's nothing wrong with the above if it helps you get into and out of a stall safely...
The problem comes when attempting to model the forces acting at the moment of spin, within a simulation...
For example of what I mean by mis-conception lets look at a simple case within normal flight.
We want to roll to the right, we apply a bit of right stick, the left aileron goes down the right up... and the left wing will rise and the right drop...
A question...... which wing is generating more force ?
Simon
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Ok, i'll try to explain it as best as i can. As far as my training this is how i got it.
When you first apply left stick the the right wing will have aileron down, and the left will have the aileron up. The changes to the wings will be as follows: outboard right will increase AoA, lift and increased drag. inboard right will stay the same. outboard left will decrease lift, and the inboard left will stay the same. This lifts the right wing up and the left wing is pushed down, but at the same time it rotates/yaw the aircraft to the right.
And my understanding is that when the bank is set the outer wing is creating more lift than the inner wing because it's travelling faster. this explains why you need right stick in a left turn to keep the bank angle.
I highly suggest you invest some money into getting a proper book for aerodynamics to tell you about all the details though.
EDIT: I've thought about it for along time now, and what i said about the sustained turn dosen't feel right... i'll see if i can find some other sources than my own flight book.
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Thanks for the reply.... and please understand everyone, I know sometime I come across as condencending within forums, but please be assured I'm not, and I'm not trying to make anyone look foolish or lose face... I just love these sort of conversations.
I would say that this is a key sentence... "but at the same time it rotates/yaw the aircraft to the right."
If the centre of pressure is behind the CoG then to yaw the plane to the right, the right wing would have to be generating more force...ie more X & Y vectors, which yaw the plane.... but also more Z vector which means more lift on the right wing... which is droping at the time.
Simon...
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Alright :P
Anyways, i think i agree with you, but could you specify x,y,z?
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X vector +ve towards the nose
Y vector +ve towards the right wing
Z vector +ve downwards
Basic right-hand rule.
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But what if im left-handed ;)
Anyway.. thanks for the clarification
Nevermind... re-reading it i now understand what you were saying... at first i thought you meant the left wing in a left roll had the most force...
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Nevermind... re-reading it i now understand what you were saying... at first i thought you meant the left wing in a left roll had the most force...
but that is exactly what I'm saying and is the only thing that meets the requirement that the nose rotates to the left....
Simon
p.s. Can we please stick to ethier rolling to the right or left, swapping like this can lead to confussion, in an already complex situation.
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Alright. lets stick with right roll like you initially stated then :)
So if i were to do a roll to the right, the right wing would be one with most force? wouldn't it be the left one because it creates lift?
Also let's be clear. is it the initial roll, or is it the turn we are talking about?
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Ok to be real clear let's remove the turn out of the equation and do a barrel roll.... pure unadulterated aileron.
Now it's easy to imagine that the left wing as it rises is generating more lift than the right wing as it drops... I spent years thinking along those lines... afterall that's what the books say... But the books also say that the centre of lift doesn't move, and that's where all the confusion arises because if the point at which the force is acting doesn't move then the only way that a wing can rise IS by increasing the force.
Otherwise you could increase the moment generated by the left wing by simply moving the center of lift outwards whilst keeping the force it's generating the same.... and if you moved the centre of lift outwards enough you could actually reduce the force it's generating and still have more moments of turning than the right wing...
Now Farlander, you've already explained that with a lowering of the aileron the outer wing generates more lift and the inner remains the same, under those circumstances the centre of lift has to move, there can be no confusion here.
ok so I've moved the stick to the right, the lift from the left outerwing increases and the center of lift moves outwards, on the right wing the opposite takes place.... and it's easy to imagine, the left wing has more lift and more moments.
But wait ! AND THEN THE PLANE ROTATES.
Now depending upon the forward speed of the plane, the rate of rotation and the distances along the wing at which you're measuring, and as such the speed that this point is rotating at..... the Angle of Attack changes.. it's a Pythagoras thing.
And get this.. the AoA on the lowering wing increases and decreases on the wing rising...
So now we have a reducing of lift by the left wing, but the lift that is being generated is at the outerwing and as such has a greater moment of turning that the greater lift being generated by the droping wing which is being generated closer to the root...
And that's how the right wing generates more lift than the left, yet still the left produces more moments of turning than the right...
And under those circumstances the right wing having a centre of lift behind the centre of gravity, and due soley to the dihedral creates a Y vector pushing leftwards and which yaws the nose to the right....
phew......
Simon
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Thanks for the great explanation Simon! now i understand the theory behind your thinking.
But what really put a load on my brain was that... if the left wing is creating more lift than the outside wing, wouldn't the plane want to level out by itself?
Anyways, i have tested your cessna in outerra a bit further now, and there's something that feels weird about the landings, especially the flare-out. the plane seems to stall out very fast at when i flare out.. even with sufficient speed.. i need to have power on to make the flare and touch down smooth. i don't know what's causing it, or if you already know about the problem... but ill look at it further tomorrow.
Is the download on the first page the most updated btw?
Many thanks again for clarifying!
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No as when it comes to rotating it's the moments that are important, and the left wing always has a greater moment than the right wing...
moment = weight x distance
m = 5lbs x 10ft = 50lbsft
m = 10lbs x 5ft = 50lbsft
a small weight a long way away has the same moment of turning as a large weight very close.
yeh I believe it's up to date.... I've broken mine on my machine, working on float plane variant.
Also I wouldn't worry about those flight models as I've new ones in the making...
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I remember reading something about it,, but you will not know if it's in Spanish .. .. sorry.
(download the browser)
https://mega.nz/#!MQpwQYYK!E1lrkXkBXvG0sCK_WeBlDD-c83CGfR8NX4Jbg9TfCUI
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Alright thanks Simon. Cant wait to test the new ones, a seaplane would be nice too ;)