Outerra forum

Anteworld - Outerra Game => Game & gameplay discussion => Topic started by: cameni on August 12, 2011, 01:21:03 pm

Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: cameni on August 12, 2011, 01:21:03 pm
Here's a link to a web page (http://www.outerra.com/navmap/navmap.html) that embeds Google Maps and allows you to click on places to see the size and layout of basic units of allocatable land, that are approximately 2.5km wide. Once it loads, simply click on the map to highlight the tiles.
Note - this is just for comparison, it doesn't actually allocate the land for you :)

If you have a HTML5 capable browser, it will ask you to permit the use of your current geo location, so that it can show the map centered on where you are now. If you don't have a HTML5 supporting browser or deny the request, it will put you somewhere near Miami.

(http://www.outerra.com/navmap/lmap.jpg) (http://www.outerra.com/navmap/navmap.html)

Comments about the size and amount of tiles to give to players?
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: necro on August 12, 2011, 03:00:27 pm
What are these tiles for? I didnt got the point. Represent them your ingame patches?

Ahh i thin i got it ;D you are planning to make each patch as dlc for... 10€. So each player can buy the patches he wants. you will be rich ;D not bought patches will be ugly black.. how clever >_>
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: cameni on August 12, 2011, 03:59:19 pm
It's about claiming land in Outerra World game (http://www.outerra.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=370), and the granularity that we aim to have assignable to colonizers.

There is 30 million of these tiles on the earth's land surface .. what a pile of money :mad:
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: yhwhluver on August 12, 2011, 04:18:28 pm
I think the tiles are a pretty good size.  They're not too big where you may be forced to get a lot of unusable space and not too small where you'd have to place a million of them to allocate a good sized plot.  They're small and easy enough to allocate other shapes besides a giant square.  For example, you can easily follow a river if that's all you wanted, or you can easily allocate some flatter areas that would be easier to build on rather than including a bunch of hills.  I have a picture example of this but I'm not sure how to upload it.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on August 12, 2011, 04:30:19 pm
Hmm, that's an interesting tool.  There was this browser game I played a few months back which parsed the entire surface of the Earth into chunks like that.  Guess they were using the same tech :).  Always wondered how they did it.

For my portion I'd want to claim, I'd only need about 4 tiles minimum, and about 15 maximum  :D
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: yhwhluver on August 12, 2011, 10:53:18 pm
That's it, cshawnsmith?  I was thinking 49!
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on August 13, 2011, 01:39:10 am
I'm a man of few needs :)

But that's only pertaining to what I will purchase.  It doesn't negate me from conquering the rest of the world ;)

Besides, the location I have in mind has everything I need in a very small amount of space.  It's defensible, has a very strong overlook on three sides, and only one "entry" valley to the north.  A couple of small lakes nearby, and a river within about 4 or 5 miles that goes straight to the ocean.  I can setup my own version of Helm's Deep  :lol:
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: ZeosPantera on August 13, 2011, 02:06:19 am
I took from my house down to the whole of Manhattan..
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/F12Bwth2/Forums/2011-08-13_020038.jpg)

Took 38 tiles for what is selected there. I'd say that is plenty of very VALUABLE land.. Kind of like this idea..

Start everyone with a single square then use in-game or real currency to expand.. Limit 50 units per person and then allow groups to combine and sell there plots to build mega cities.. etc etc etc.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on August 13, 2011, 04:09:17 am
Zeos's plots will be the first I conquer ;)

My location shall remain secret.   :lol:
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: Jak_o_Shadows on August 13, 2011, 04:13:04 am
This is difficult. I really want to pick my real world location, however it's probably fairly useless. Some kind of minerals map would likely help me pick my spot.
In regards to that little program, I would like to suggest some improvements. Have a tool for deselecting all squares, for entering a location and finding it (even lat-long would be nice), a map option made up of a mineral scan from outerra (when minerals get implemented) and the ability to select in squares (eg drag a box, or hold shift and it does a square between two points you click on).
Also, i support in-game currency being used to buy new land. Real world currency could unbalance the game i fear.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: ZeosPantera on August 13, 2011, 05:05:54 am
Quote from: Jak_o_Shadows
Real world currency could unbalance the game i fear.

It could also buy Brano a new car.  :cool:
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: Tottel on August 13, 2011, 05:18:32 am
I reserve the top of the mount Everest! :>

Which reminds me that I should ask for a screenshot of that area.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: Matt6767 on August 13, 2011, 05:22:59 am
I would prefer 4 tiles for beginners. So I can place 2 tiles inland and 2 along a river or a body of water.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on August 13, 2011, 01:00:48 pm
Quote from: Jak_o_Shadows
Also, i support in-game currency being used to buy new land. Real world currency could unbalance the game i fear.

Micro-transactions are quite the rage in video games lately.  In most, the in-game currency can be naturally earned as well as purchased with real-world currency.  It really doesn't unbalance it that much, because usually a so-called "Wallet Warrior" will lack the skills to properly play if he or she leveled up using money versus earning it.

Regardless, I'm certain Outerra will have certain limits in place to prevent someone from spending, say, $1000US, to buy up all of Australia.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: yhwhluver on August 13, 2011, 01:15:11 pm
Quote from: ZeosPantera
I'd say that is plenty of very VALUABLE land

Doubt it since there will be nothing there.  It would be more valuable than somewhere landlocked because you have the ocean, though.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: ZeosPantera on August 13, 2011, 11:32:48 pm
Quote from: yhwhluver
Quote from: ZeosPantera
I'd say that is plenty of very VALUABLE land

Doubt it since there will be nothing there.  It would be more valuable than somewhere landlocked because you have the ocean, though.

Most places of value today (Big Cities) are there because of the environment and paths they control. New York was a shipping port with access to the Atlantic Ocean and the Hudson river.

Does no good owning a diamond mine in north Dakota if you can't get it out of there. Keeping in mind PLANES DONT COUNT!! They didn't exist then and wont ever exist now.. Fail.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: Grind and Click on August 14, 2011, 09:55:17 am
Man, i am seeing my ArmA Online style Sim here so much.

Patroling your land with electronic warfare and detection aircraft, building ground forces to defend a perimeter....or transporting an assault force?

Spy aircraft to check on your neighbours...transport craft to build a hidden FOB and amass your assets.

I see it so much more now that you've confirmed these blocks as a purchase by purchase grid system.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: yhwhluver on August 15, 2011, 11:27:27 am
Quote from: ZeosPantera
Most places of value today (Big Cities) are there because of the environment and paths they control. New York was a shipping port with access to the Atlantic Ocean and the Hudson river.

Does no good owning a diamond mine in north Dakota if you can't get it out of there. Keeping in mind PLANES DONT COUNT!! They didn't exist then and wont ever exist now.. Fail.

New York was also one of very few port cities in the new world, which is why it's so big.  It had a head start.  Yes it controls the Hudson River, but wouldn't you think New Orleans would be more valuable since it controls the Mississippi River and, therefore, most of the inland access to the US (looking at just the US for simplicity, there's obviously other such river access points around the world that are equally or more so valuable).  Basically, what I'm getting at is, if there's nothing there, then it would not be extremely valuable, but it would be more so than something land locked.  Depending on how the game starts out, you have to look at the world as a whole with a blank slate.  Obviously now, New York is extremely valuable along with a handful of other cities / areas, but with an empty world, and the ability to just choose any spot you want, things are on more of a level playing field.  On another note, why would planes not exist?  Cameni and Angry Pig have videos of them flying planes and helicopters.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: ZeosPantera on August 15, 2011, 11:33:08 am
Lol, relax guy.. Planes do exist I just had to wish them away for my analogy to work 100%.

Also havent you heard of the great Manhattan Diamond Mines? I have.. :P
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: Matt6767 on August 15, 2011, 12:35:31 pm
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2mpg0ad.jpg)

36 Tiles for Baytown, 50 tiles overall.

- Assuming boats will play a major part in resource and military transportation, I placed tiles over areas that will give me great access to the ocean.

- Each area is surrounded by water on 3 of the 4 sides. So If a ground attack is ever to occur it can only come from one side. No flanking attacks.

- Most of the forces will be guarding Galveston and Baytown so I don't have to waste time and military resources on the smaller territories.

- Sea Forces can only enter and leave through Galveston. My ships don't have to be scattered all over the place, just near my bases and the entrance.

The plan is set, now we wait.  :lol:
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: cameni on August 15, 2011, 01:17:06 pm
Hmm, this raises one question, I thought the tiles will have to form a contiguous area, or else somebody could spread them all over the states. In the war state it would be stupid, but here in the peaceful world colonization game (at least initially peaceful)?
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on August 15, 2011, 01:33:14 pm
Perhaps set it up to where the tiles can be selected within a particular radius of the initial selection, if you want to go that route.  However, making them contiguous at the start is a much better and more realistic model of initial recolonization.  Perhaps set it up to where you cannot claim new spots for X number of days/weeks/months, or set it to a certain level of your home area's economy.  Once you reach that level, you can either expand it contiguously, or claim another area within X number of kilometers from the home area (supply lines being crucial).
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on August 15, 2011, 01:42:25 pm
By the way, how big are those tiles?  They appear to me to be around 2 or 3 kilometers?  You can practically cover my home town with just four of them :D
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: cameni on August 15, 2011, 01:46:42 pm
Yes, roughly 2.5km wide.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: ZeosPantera on August 15, 2011, 02:03:19 pm
Using minecraft's Towny mod as a base for this discussion in it you can buy chunks(16mx16m) to build a town. But you need to use your in-game money made from resource mining to buy the first chunk which is $75,000. Each additional chunk is $500.

In Outerra since we are basically GIVING everyone the first section for "free" maybe they need to pay off that "free" plot before they can expand. Prove that they have the skills to invest more land.

Maybe the mothership is loaded with real estate lawyers!

I think a strict limit of say 10 sections for a single user then when multi-player is enabled. A group can combine and the chunks can add up but not in a linear way. 10 for a single.. 15 for two people, 18 for three, 20 for four, and two additional blocks for each person thereafter. That way a city can be huge but it will have to have a large amount of people. You would then need to block certain abilities from smaller groups. Airports, distribution hub's and mega-highway machines could be reserved for cites with populations of 100, 250?

Perhaps a founder system. Where the city only "belongs" to founding members so people can keep their 10 slot plot and work for the city.

Then since web integration is so easy each City can get a forums to post plans, organize leaders and events. A community could literally be that.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: cameni on August 15, 2011, 03:35:06 pm
Quote from: ZeosPantera
In Outerra since we are basically GIVING everyone the first section for "free" maybe they need to pay off that "free" plot before they can expand. Prove that they have the skills to invest more land.
Yes, something like that. But I wonder if it cannot be done differently, like assigning the land automatically when you found a settlement, and expand the radius as the city grows.

Quote
I think a strict limit of say 10 sections for a single user then when multi-player is enabled. A group can combine and the chunks can add up but not in a linear way. 10 for a single.. 15 for two people, 18 for three, 20 for four, and two additional blocks for each person thereafter. That way a city can be huge but it will have to have a large amount of people. You would then need to block certain abilities from smaller groups. Airports, distribution hub's and mega-highway machines could be reserved for cites with populations of 100, 250?

Perhaps a founder system. Where the city only "belongs" to founding members so people can keep their 10 slot plot and work for the city.
Maybe something like that too, to encourage forming of higher state forms. Each player to have 10 tiles, an alliance of 3 to get +5 more, to be claimed by the ruler of the alliance and so on ...
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on August 15, 2011, 04:35:10 pm
I'm wondering: Will this overlay tool be available within the engine like your Google Maps plugin?  Would be interesting to see it, especially if there is some sort of graphical overlay over the terrain that will also show you the land you'd be claiming.

Something like this:
(http://www.cshawnsmith.com/images/k255_tool_example.jpg)

Just a quick and dirty example using an image you posted a LONG time ago :)  Hard to believe the engine's come so far!
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: cameni on August 15, 2011, 05:00:11 pm
Yes, I'm working on it. I'm thinking how it should look like, given that it's supposed to be drawn as a projection on the HUD. It will be probably a wireframe overlay that shows the topology, tile borders and highlights the surface a bit as well. Got to experiment with it a bit.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: yhwhluver on August 15, 2011, 09:17:03 pm
Quote from: ZeosPantera
Lol, relax guy.. Planes do exist I just had to wish them away for my analogy to work 100%.

Also havent you heard of the great Manhattan Diamond Mines? I have.. :P

lol, are the mines owned by De Beers?  Even in the future they have a monopoly.

Quote from: cameni
Hmm, this raises one question, I thought the tiles will have to form a contiguous area, or else somebody could spread them all over the states. In the war state it would be stupid, but here in the peaceful world colonization game (at least initially peaceful)?

In case you couldn't tell, everyone is ready for war.  Just look at the way people are planning out tiles and getting ready for military defenses.  lol
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on August 16, 2011, 02:50:37 am
Quote from: yhwhluver
In case you couldn't tell, everyone is ready for war.  Just look at the way people are planning out tiles and getting ready for military defenses.  lol

My "military defenses" are mainly in place for the Things-That-Want-To-Kill-You.  And Zeos.  I have no doubt he'll be on a murderous rampage across Northern America within a month or two, so I want to stop him ahead of time.  Maybe a well placed nuke will be effective.  I have no doubt my location has an abundance of Uranium, just for such an emergency :D  Drop one in what is left of downtown Manhattan, and problem solved :p
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: yhwhluver on August 16, 2011, 11:32:46 am
The location I'm looking at has iron to help with the bomb making  :D

Although, this brings up a question for cameni that I thought of not too long ago (and I haven't seen any topics about it).  How will resources work?  Wood and water seems pretty obvious, but what about things like iron, uranium, bauxite, etc.?  Or is there be just a generic "resource"?
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: cameni on August 16, 2011, 04:04:05 pm
Probably will be divided into some groups. Basic construction materials, organic matter for fuels and food, precious metals and rare earth elements for hi-tech, radioactive isotopes for generators ... some of these could be extractable only after upgrading the separator, and so on.

Does anybody know of a game (RTS?) that could be taken for an inspiration here?
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: yhwhluver on August 16, 2011, 06:37:34 pm
The only game that I've seen that had different resources and were accurately set on a map is the board game Empire Builder.  It only covers the US, Mexico, and parts of Canada.  There are also versions for Europe, Japan, and I believe Australia.  I don't know how accurate those versions are.  Yeah, it's pretty limited, and other than Medieval: Total War (limited resources, not sure on accuracy) and Railroad Tycoon (several different resources, but randomly placed), I don't know of any computer game that has resources.
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: cameni on August 17, 2011, 09:41:53 am
A selection shown in engine:

(http://www.outerra.com/shots/map-zeos.jpg) (http://www.outerra.com/shots/map-zeos.jpg)
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: MiB on August 17, 2011, 04:35:51 pm
Quote from: cameni
A selection shown in engine:

Nicely done !  ;)
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: ZeosPantera on August 17, 2011, 07:09:35 pm
Damn it.. That last square touches Nehw Jerwseee. I hate Nehw Jerwseee
Title: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: C. Shawn Smith on August 17, 2011, 07:22:46 pm
Quote from: ZeosPantera
Damn it.. That last square touches Nehw Jerwseee. I hate Nehw Jerwseee

Spoken like a true New Yawker!
Title: Re: Map for testing tile allocation
Post by: PytonPago on January 05, 2012, 12:38:44 pm
Does anybody know of a game (RTS?) that could be taken for an inspiration here?

Dont know much about an such complex RTS, so my mind version is like this: a massive building and reaction strategy combined whyte logistics maybe in tycoon-type way. In fact, there are a great number of things in any of its aspects:
  - Building - Many strategies may have a simple resource based building process, mainly a single-resource (Command and conquer type| or a simple resource combination (Warcraft whyte 4-resource type base|. I allways had a feeling of an resource quantity lack in games like this, mainly in the Age of Empire strategies (every evolution stage had a relevant and somewhat unbalanced resource-needs|. There would be a great thing to make an near realistic quantitative portions of various resources (in older ages just an couple of rocks and metal ore, in modern ages the needs for running the society/work in progress should be exponentially greater and more uncommon resources needed| - the older ages/technologies would use more solid energy sources, more actual material and have an great efficiency lack, modern ones would use more sofisticated power sources (el. energy trough machinery, geothermals, subparticle-alien-future like energy sources|. Wile the sources are scattered and theyr need is greater, where some other positivities come up: 
 - excessive need of exploring the enviroment (an great plus mainly in the Outerra offer there is|
 - need of reaction between various other sides/nations/unions/species, that may have some of the sources in minor ownage and/or some specific sources nowhere else to find (would be capable to use even as a reason for a concrete mission to do|.
 - a little more real and complex strategy thinking development.
Of course there will be Base (wood, stone, metal ...|, minor (cole, oil, some other less common metals, mierals ...| and extraordinary resources (uranium, gold, silver, crystals ...|, while the combination of them is needed in every product and building regarding to its character in a more realistic manner. More machinery (more metal, some uncommon metals, gold and crystals for electronics in the more sofisticated ones|, more building (more rock wood, minerals, then some metal later on| and whyte greater objects/higher ages ewen in more quantity .... for substitute structures/vehicles needing more uncommon and specific materials, so the trades are rolling.
In this regards, the building itself doesnt need any much construction requirements out of the resources, that should finally change from a man in stoneage, to the need of producing more and more eficient and capable building machinery, maybe some special building cranes for extra high constructions, or even whyte some substituents (no need to have a hi-hight crane, if there is an lifting-heli Mi-26-style| and those would need some resources and other building needs too (also older ones use more oil/cole and it takes longer to build|... (and why destroying the enemy ones, when you can use/capture them ?  ;D| ... and of course some storage and transportation needs in it (mining in one place, massive transportation via road/train air to the facility/storage| also the building and other units too, to save oil|.

 - boundaries - that would out of the resource side have the recent and long-term goals for each nation/side. Maybe even technologies-sharing due to coalitions or infrastructure (roads, transportation means (no need to have the planes if the neighbour has them|| or resource(mines or storages| sharing capability.

 - units - witch should be actually a base to the planed model-integration planed. A game constructed to have a good base for adding new buildings, vehicles and maybe special resources, whyle the definition of its type would be taken into function (adding an new construction vehicle defining its function, resources-needs as an aspect of the model itself (maybe in the adding process a new window pops up and demands those parameters, indexing them to the model and/or substitutes some of the existing in the function|, that the game just reads and applies|. That will be a good start for a more detailed and tactics required thinking and gameplay ...
Mostly war strategies suffers from variations and tactics binded to them (just infantry units are inner-defensive, airborne, nawy, motorized, special troops/operations and all of them share some of the specifics  anti-tank, heavy-machine ...| all whyte some specifics that gives them some + and - in tactical engagement.
The most seen is this problem maybe in World in Conflict, where little diversity and engagement ways were posible.

At the same time it could be in the future even database-based: Any addon/game would not have the the need to have those models, it they can be downloaded or used for them from this database, just the indexes for those models would in the other game give some other parameters/reactions to them, specific to the game needs. Whyle the addon-tool would make it easy to add new ones needed for that specific project.

 - Wartime - finally, the mass-units side was already comented, the main other side is logictics around those units, that in my opinion had an great extend in Blitzkrieg and a little more extended in "Противостояние: Принуждение к миру" adding to the shortages of munitions even gas-need (for global transportation also, if not electricity-powered| for every unit and killing  some of the crew under fire in lighter-armored vehicles + repairs + medics. Still maybe white the need of towing/pulling/pushing destroyed/damage units out of routes ...