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Author Topic: part of OT terrain exportation  (Read 11833 times)

foxfiles

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part of OT terrain exportation
« on: June 04, 2012, 12:30:54 pm »

Do you preview a possibility for users, to select a part of the OT terrain, and export it to another application?

In the other(s) application, the user could use this terrain segment as reference for "large enrichment" ,
then export and import in OT terrain-less datas (collada or other formats, even why not in a proprietary OT format with classes or other definitions)

In other word, do you believe that OT will be its own powerful editor?
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cameni

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2012, 01:56:20 pm »

The terrain in OT is defined procedurally, it's hard to export it to anything else. Perhaps as a mesh of some resolution, but that would either make the export huge if the most detailed level is selected, or lose detail with a coarse one. Not to mention the hassle of export-import.

Ultimately we will have to make ore powerful editing functions because of that, and because it will be better.
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foxfiles

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2012, 04:53:13 am »

Yes OT's terrain is procedural, BUT it comes on top or from SRTM elevation data, does it?
so it is a question of approx and tolerance... if one "designs" on top of STRM triangles, and import inside OT,
then its datas will be plus-minus position x,y,z correct ?
of course there is some strong probability that these datas will smash OT terrain, trees and other OT refinements.

If we use an example and let's assume that I want to create a game scenario in my own city of Luxembourg :
- one grey alien who is the worst fiscal evader of the galaxy, coming from zeta reticuli, wants to deposit 2 kg of anti-grav "Element 115 ununpentium" in a Luxembourg Bank (of course I'm just kidding)
- so he lands somewhere in OT Luxembourg and has to find the good Bank  ;D

if I want my storyboard to be believable, then my environment must be believable too; and SRTM is not good enough for that,
adding that I also doubt about Openstreemap for me to get a believable sufficient representation : so I would work with heterogeneous datas coming from various sources, in order to create datas that I hope to be re-usable in OT... other way I don't see.

What I mean is that I have no doubt that you WILL have powerful editing functions inside OT,
but what worries me is that You have so many things to develop
and I have to wait for these functions to be available  :-[ to start and work on my game...

Is it still too early for you to pre-define some data descriptors or specifications about future compatible OT classes or formats?

« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 05:00:37 am by foxfiles »
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cameni

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2012, 05:13:51 am »

SRTM are 90m, there's lots of detail being added in between. Compare the first and the last picture in this old visualization of procedural terrain in OT. The difference can be large, especially when you consider human scale (shown on the last pic as well).

Yes it's too early to release a scene descriptor format now, when it changes every so often. Besides, it's created for optimal traversal and rendering, not suitable as an exchange format. So it would be either investing time into the editor or into importer/exporter.
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foxfiles

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 05:59:34 am »

Okay sorry, I had not seen your blog article where you describe very well the way you work with the original elevation dataset.
Indeed I agree now seeing that the added "noise" is out of tolerance for working out of OT with SRTM posts.

I also understand very well that it is too early, but maybe I do not use the right terminology,
 you should have already maybe few very simple 2D or 2D 1/2 topological primitives (points, arcs, curves) that can be mapped and used by your procedural terrain/algorithms ?

I did not yet look at how someone can create roads in OT but you should have a simple vector format to parse such datas or it can only be done "by hand" so far, with mouse clicks? there is no external datas for creating roads in OT?

Other question, would you write some specifications for an external developing company to develop (and invest time at your place) on the editor or on an exporter/importer, or on both ?
In other word, I think that you and your colleague(s), the core "dream" team, must stay focused on tracing the Big route, deciiding on the main concepts and work on the very advanced "procedural parts" of your engine; but why not sub-contract less difficult tasks ?


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cameni

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2012, 12:33:46 pm »

Roads cannot be imported from an external source yet, but the internal road builder is pretty much ready. When you make a road in the road editor by clicking on the terrain and adding waypoints, internally the mouse clicks are converted to ECEF coordinates first, and this is then handled by the road builder core. Likewise you could add points defined as longitude+latitude+altitude, the way it's recorded in OSM. Basic OSM roads could be imported relatively easily, we only need to implement an algorithm to partition the OSM dataset, making a cache-friendly converter that creates OT vector data via the road builder that's already there.

Some of the functionality can be outsourced, provided we expose some low-level interfaces. So I guess some 3rd party tools will start showing up then.
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foxfiles

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2012, 01:42:44 pm »

I am not skilled enough in these things but OSM is having a WMS tile service with a cache setting  (WMS web map service)
using WMS format in GDAL library, it is possible to access different types of web datas
but it seems that these OSM datas are images ? are they?
please look at the bottom of this GDAL's page here
http://www.gdal.org/frmt_wms.html

as long as I've seen in using geo-web-3d app (which is using GDAL),
I could map OSM images on their raw globe model (a bit slow though because of the OSM web server load/latency I suppose)

I remember to have seen somewhere that the OSM global data can be used (free or purchased, I need to re-check) to be served on one own specific server, am I wrong? if not, why not open a specific OSM server, feeding OT only?

There might exist also WMS for vectors from other sources, mainly ESRI I think?
but they are neither free (some are free) nor they are available for the whole earth.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 01:55:11 pm by foxfiles »
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foxfiles

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2012, 01:59:58 pm »

yes it seems to be png images service, so need to create longitude+latitude+altitude from OSM png(s) for creating OT roads?
but OSM must have their vector datas also available through a WMS?
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cameni

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 02:00:41 pm »

:)

OSM data can be downloaded in vector form as XML, whole or partitioned into regions. I was referring to an algo that would take these data and extract them in blocks corresponding to the tiles used in OT projection, and feed the road builder with it.
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foxfiles

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 04:52:11 pm »

yes, in the past minutes, I was just looking at the OSM elements and understood my mistakes   :-\
as yes I see that OSM components are pretty simple and 16Gb compressed for the entire planet.
 I learn at the same time I communicate with you, so what I said above is not only stupid but useless too,
GDAL example creates png images from the original OSM elements  ::) ---  I am a full beginner in this.

(I'll be back in touch tomorrow)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 05:01:19 pm by foxfiles »
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foxfiles

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2012, 01:27:59 am »

Okay I'd like to look better at OSM : their licensing system, how deep they go in their descriptors, how they update their datas, who is who...
 
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cameni

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2012, 03:20:54 am »

Their license allows use of the data, but the files derived from the data must be redistributable under the same license. This usually means it cannot be combined with commercial data, as it would require these data to be redistributable OSM-style. If we store it in a separate layer it would not pose a problem.
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foxfiles

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2012, 04:05:38 am »

Okay for the license. I'm looking at how they describe and it seems to be very 2D only !
I have to look better but, for example, I do not see anything related to description of sidewalks (presence, dimensions, width), same for lane descriptions? how are the width of the lane(s) managed? I need to read more  :D but it seems they do not transport much 3d or Z datas ?

Post scriptum : I am pretty engaged today in other tasks... I will Pm or email you asap
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 10:28:37 am by foxfiles »
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VereWolf

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2012, 02:00:35 pm »

I would rather interest about editing earth as change terrain and plant . How do it?
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cameni

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Re: part of OT terrain exportation
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2012, 03:53:59 am »

You mean a large scale planet editing? For that I would like to create a separate version with specialized tools for creation of continents, mountain ranges, rivers etc. But first things first. At the moment we are only loosely working on these features with ME-DEM guys, but the priority is in creation of Earth environment.
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