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[Michael :)]

well I thought you generate the world from real world data, like google maps. and rivers would be recognized by your algorithm when computing.
am I totally wrong on that?

[cameni]

yes yes .. totally wrong

I would not call Google maps a "real world data". Maps are maps, created from real world data. We are using raw elevation data, raw climate data, vector databases ..
To analyze a secondary stuff that was created from real world data with necessary loss of information during transformation would be costly, stupid and impossible (C.S.I.)

[Michael :)]

lesson learned. thank you.

[MatthewS]

Like the roads. Width is a parameter for each spline node so it can be widening downstream too.
Rivers will be created from the available vector data only, if you want to have a small local stream there it can be added simply as you would add a road. We won't be "vectorizing" rivers automatically (from what?), not for Earth. For artificial planets later, river creation will be a part of the coarse world creation algorithm.

Do you mean for each node rivers will have a constant width (ie parallel banks) for the length of the node?  IMO I don't think this will look realistic.  

In Open Street Map (OSM) the rivers are specified as a closed polygon (OSM uses this approach for lakes too).  In fact a single river or lake can be comprised of any number of closed polygons, as long as those polygons meet along a common edge the river (or lake) will look correct when rendered.  Additionally OSM allows relationships to be defined between polygons so that "islands" within rivers and lakes can be represented.

Have a look at this river in Bangkok, notice how non-uniform the opposite banks are.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=13.6819&lon=100.5396&zoom=14&layers=M

Please don't cripple rivers in Outerra by making them no more than wet "roads".

[cameni]

Hmm I don't see anything special in there.

The banks won't be parallel, the width is interpolated between the nodes so that a general shape can be fitted. Banks won't be smooth and straight either; there is a transitional area where the road is blended with terrain, and if you put a water surface there the edge will be fractalish. I would not go for exact shapes as created in OSM for now - amount of data is much higher and since we are "inventing" detail below certain level anyway, it's unnecessary at the moment. Actually it's probably not the right approach anyway - for example short bays should be created as bays, a terrain modification with object placement. Requirements for maps (what OSM's are) are different from the requirements for 3D worlds so we can't go for 1:1 relation with OSM.

In fact I'm not sure to what extent the OSM data could be used here, for that matter.

[MatthewS]

Requirements for maps (what OSM's are) are different from the requirements for 3D worlds so we can't go for 1:1 relation with OSM.

I wrote an OSM importer for FSX.  Every polygon/polyline in the OSM data is there in FSX, ie it's an 1:1 correspondence.  

It would be a real shame if the great free resource that is OSM cannot be leveraged for creating an accurate representation of the world in Outerra.  This will dissuade many flight simmers who are use to products such as "Ultimate Terrain" and "Full Terrain X" for FSX, or even the upcoming XP10 which uses OSM extensively.

Please reconsider.

[cameni]

How does it look from low heights or from the ground level?

I'm not saying it won't be supported, just that majority of river lengths don't need to be done that way and reusing the road system will be faster and it will render faster. Remember we want to create how the planet looked without the effect of civilization first, and have the effects of human work in a separate layer. That means the artificial banks and exact shapes there can be added by it, but the way they are added/supported must be such that the ground level detail generated from it looks right.

But I think it was you who applauded the approach of having the detail at all scales, I wonder how are you imagining it would work here with simply taking the polylines? All I am saying is that this will require a different approach than a simple map drawing.

[MatthewS]

But I think it was you who applauded the approach of having the detail at all scales, I wonder how are you imagining it would work here with simply taking the polylines? All I am saying is that this will require a different approach than a simple map drawing.

Yes at low levels polylines (with long segments) don't look good except of course where they actually represent man made features such as docks or sea walls.  For my FSX OSM importer I had been trying to identify which segments are man made and which natural so I could introduce some variation (extra points) to the natural segments and make them look better.  

But still I hope you find some way to leverage OSM for adding the man made "layer" (docks, sea walls etc) of rivers, lakes and bays. Have a look at this 06 approach to RPLL over Manila Bay, the detail supplied by OSM for free is just amazing!
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=14.5282&lon=120.9747&zoom=13&layers=M

[ZeosPantera]

Actually, all of this is moot. Man has redirected most rivers and streams and there is no way of telling Outerra to go naturally. I mean how is it going to handle the Hoover dam? or the Panama canal or any of Venice for that matter.

You would also need to remove the airport in japan they built out of the sea.

[MatthewS]

Actually, all of this is moot. Man has redirected most rivers and streams and there is no way of telling Outerra to go naturally. I mean how is it going to handle the Hoover dam? or the Panama canal or any of Venice for that matter.

You would also need to remove the airport in japan they built out of the sea.

Which is why IMHO he must leverage OSM for games/sims that are meant to represent the modern world.

Flight simmers will be really put off if FSX & XP can use OSM to provide accuracy but Outerra can't.

I think I understand what he's saying about detail at ground level, but some way needs to found to use OSM and still provide high detail ("fractals") for those polyline segments that are meant to be natural and not man made.

It would be good to see some screen shots of how rivers/lakes and coastlines look in Outerra (with real-world comparisons) if possible. At the end of the day I'm sure Outerra will look as amazing in this respect as everything else we've seen so far!

[ZeosPantera]

I have full confidence whatever system he implements for Outerra (regardless of the function, coastlines, wind, weather) it will surpass anything you can currently use in fsx or xp.

Just sit back, relax...   and let the magic happen.

[cameni]

Just sit back, relax...   and let the magic happen.

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[angrypig]

Flight simmers will be really put off if FSX & XP can use OSM to provide accuracy but Outerra can't.

I think I understand what he's saying about detail at ground level, but some way needs to found to use OSM and still provide high detail ("fractals") for those polyline segments that are meant to be natural and not man made.

It would be good to see some screen shots of how rivers/lakes and coastlines look in Outerra (with real-world comparisons) if possible. At the end of the day I'm sure Outerra will look as amazing in this respect as everything else we've seen so far!

Could you please show us the results of your OSM importer for FSX on a few screenshots? I am really curious about that.

Problem with OSM is that it's intended for maps - it lacks height information which has to be reconstructed, and it contents with countours without encoding important details. We do not aim to provide world only for flight simulation but also for other kind of games which require much higher detail. This detail and visual quality simply cannot be achieved by raw OSM import. There is a lot of procedural stuff that has to be generated along with this data, for example the lamps and mile stones on roads.

But I am really curious what you think about that and also what quality is sufficient for flight simmers.

[MatthewS]

Could you please show us the results of your OSM importer for FSX on a few screenshots? I am really curious about that.

About to leave for work, but will post later tonight.

In the meantime you could see what FSX users are used to with Ultimate Terrain.

http://www.scenerysolutions.com/ut_fsx_eur.html
http://www.scenerysolutions.com/ut_fsx_usa.html

[ZeosPantera]

That pack does make FSX look better. But really even that is not that impressive. I mean your looking at all these screens from 1000 feet up and 1 mile away. Outerra needs to look good from space to the ground where I am standing. So I am sure as good as the ground "needs" to look from the height of an aircraft it needs to look much better from the height of a car doing 60 and especially for a man walking around looking down.