Outerra forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Outerra Tech Demo download. Help with graphics driver issues

Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)  (Read 18440 times)

ZeosPantera

  • ||>>-Z-<<||
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2518
  • #1 Outerra Fan Boy
    • My Youtube
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2012, 02:42:46 pm »

You seem far more knowledgeable in this field than I and I will take you word on all the figures. If you have any suggestions on how to modernize or universalize the power/systems for bases and vehicles PLEASE share them. We need more people that actually know the engineering sides of things to help with designs. I hate when games base nothing on science and just gut feeling everything.

Let's get science up in here.

Logged
"Fear accompanies the possibility of death, Calm shepherds its certainty" - General Ka Dargo

User_name

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 6
  • newbie
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2012, 03:34:26 pm »

From reading forum comments it seems that the setting would be somewhat in the future… So with that said, many things can be possible.

Sounds like a do everything exploration vehicle is what you are after.

Couple of questions;
-Would amphibious capabilities be required?
-Using it as a generator to power other things when not on the move be a benefit?
-Is emphasis on good fuel economy or brute force?
-Would a semi-realistic power/fuel consumption model be required?
-Magic fuel OK (something that does not exist)?
-Batteries with 10x the power density of today’s technology OK? Can trade space on truck for range with insertable modules.

Lots of possibilities, perhaps make a few suggestions and can help on technical end. 
Logged

ZeosPantera

  • ||>>-Z-<<||
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2518
  • #1 Outerra Fan Boy
    • My Youtube
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2012, 08:30:27 pm »

-Would amphibious capabilities be required?

I think some fording would be needed but I wouldn't want it as a replacement for an actual boat/hovercraft vehicle.

-Using it as a generator to power other things when not on the move be a benefit?

Personally YES. I think that would be an excellent resource to make the vehicle the center of attention when out in the wilderness or forging new territory.

-Is emphasis on good fuel economy or brute force?

I think a sliding scale. Traveling across long distant roads/plains should be economy but mountains are mountains after all.

-Would a semi-realistic power/fuel consumption model be required?

I would want impeccable attention to reality paid. Too often this is ignored and if Outerra is to be the home of all simulators it should simulate things like this foremost.

-Magic fuel OK (something that does not exist)?

Well, I think the ability to use multiple naturally occurring and easily refined fuel sources should be expected. When returning to earth I don't expect there to be any oil resources left (at least large ones) and self sustaining colonies will need to function without the benefit of large fuel harvesting operations. (that would come later when the mountain town expands and needs more power)

-Batteries with 10x the power density of today’s technology OK? Can trade space on truck for range with insertable modules.

I think we are assuming a far enough leap into the future (500-1500 years) to assume when the ship left earth technology would be certainly more advanced. How far is a matter of speculation but I don't think anything not foreseen on the horizons now should be used as a Magic Widget to fix our engineering problems.
Logged
"Fear accompanies the possibility of death, Calm shepherds its certainty" - General Ka Dargo

User_name

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 6
  • newbie
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2012, 10:12:54 pm »

For now fossil fuels are hard to replace and no real technological leaps in the near future. Look at fuel cells, they have yet to deliver on promises. Batteries are getting better (more abuse tolerant), but still power or energy density remains low by comparison to fuel.

Hybrids are good for stop and go, but VW diesel actually gets better mileage at highway speeds then Prius or it did a few years ago. What was discussed earlier is a “series hybrid” the train locomotive example which does better at low speeds. At mid to high speeds parallel hybrids do better, that is in which both electric motor and internal combustion engine share load, or electric motor handles getting it moving and engine augments power as required and also charges battery. At high speed say 80+ MPH a well designed engine is best.

I guess from a “fun” standpoint a series hybrid would be the way to go. Motor in each wheel hub and it could turn on a dime like a tank (wheels turn opposite to each other and it almost spins in place).  Perhaps 2 gen sets (engine generator combination) giving it some redundancy while being able to be economical when needed or serve as power station for small community. Diesels will run on vegetable or reasonably easily derived oils, so that would be fuel of choice I would guess.
The advantage to electric motor in wheel hub would be that it is more efficient then all 8 wheels mechanically coupled. The inverters could be set up to deliver torque as required or send power to the wheel that is not spinning. Then there are also active handling possibilities, but beyond the scope of conversation here.

Battery pack size, that’s a tough one. Perhaps treat it like city bus and use it for initial acceleration and store some regenerative braking energy. Also have a small quiet range in which truck is almost silent, because it is running on batteries only. But remember your discharger to charge ratio, usually 5:1 or you can discharge battery 5x faster than charge. You mentioned super-capacitors, those are still very unproven at high energy levels that would be required for 8x8 (never mind the size).
 
As far as diesel noise, not sure if have heard new Volvo truck, when that turbocharger gets spooled up it sounds more like a turbine than anything else, it surprised me first time I heard it. 

Now if you want to go out on the fringe, Purdue has shown aluminum with something added (can’t remember details) will split water into hydrogen and oxygen which can be burned. The aluminum gets reduced to an oxide when done…  But I wouldn’t go there.

Not sure what if anything was added, so sorry if this got dragged off topic.
Logged

ZeosPantera

  • ||>>-Z-<<||
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2518
  • #1 Outerra Fan Boy
    • My Youtube
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2012, 11:59:51 pm »

No this is fine. We need this sort of discussion to weed out ideas that make no sense. Perhaps a pure technology post just discussing what future tech should be available in all aspects. Everything from camera scanning to future weaponry.

Logged
"Fear accompanies the possibility of death, Calm shepherds its certainty" - General Ka Dargo

Peca

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Outerra fan
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2012, 02:50:45 pm »

I think the best energy source for the postapocalyptic version of Tatra 8x8 would be small nuclear reactor. It has enough power, it lasts for years and it is a real technology. We could be using this technology even now, if there weren´t some safety and political reasons.

http://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/the-answer-to-detroits-problems-build-mobile-nuclear-reactors.html
Logged

ZeosPantera

  • ||>>-Z-<<||
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2518
  • #1 Outerra Fan Boy
    • My Youtube
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2012, 02:58:51 pm »

eh.. I watched a full special on the "Nuclear Bomber" and the danger of it is insane. I don't think I would want to drive around anything using nuclear power other than a large ship with several hundred feet from it to me and steel bulkheads.
Logged
"Fear accompanies the possibility of death, Calm shepherds its certainty" - General Ka Dargo

Peca

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Outerra fan
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2012, 03:37:27 pm »

If you mean project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-119 , it is stone age and flying it was very close to commiting suicide. Nowadays we are able to create reactors which are selfregulating and automatically shut down if broken.

For example http://phys.org/news145561984.html - this has 27MW sou our reactor could much smaller.

Or if we want something supersafe, there is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator Only problem with this is low efficiency, without some major improvement it is too inefficient for our purposes.
Logged

PytonPago

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2253
  • It´s way too complex, dont let me try to explain !
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2012, 11:07:16 am »

For example http://phys.org/news145561984.html - this has 27MW sou our reactor could much smaller.

Still the old Uranium source seems to be ... would be interesting to go Th ! : P In other hand, thanks for the link. Pretty interested to know how the operation, its high temp. requirements and its needed fuel uranium state (the fission products too as for the "fuel recycling candidate" claim). Doe, would take the temp. and its designated underground usage as a high risk in automotive solutions.

Or if we want something supersafe, there is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator Only problem with this is low efficiency, without some major improvement it is too inefficient for our purposes.

Nice stuff. How much radioactive material would be needed to fuel our actual transportation world needs ?  ??? (not bad for an colony of course and with an stable source of such materials - trough a lot better nuclear reactors (for static wide-use purposes as of a mothership-reactor) and after production separation/enrichment systems) ... maybe coupled trough an modified variant of russian planed space propulsion: http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Plutonium_to_Pluto_Russian_nuclear_space_travel_breakthrough_999.html  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/05/russia_nasa_nuclear_spacecraft/ ... where the actual radioactive waste would be used for small transports after separation/enrichment (if possible, still don´t know the reactions they have in mind for this drive) ... like they ion acceleration way of thinking doe.  ;D
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 11:10:17 am by PytonPago »
Logged
We are still undeveloped as long as we don´t realize, that all our science is still descriptive, and than beyond that description lies a whole new world we just haven´t even started to fully understand.

GHAO

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Thinking
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2013, 02:02:32 pm »

According to the physics A-Level course I'm on (A-Levels are just before university, so ages 17-18), under EU laws maximum output of a large truck is 6kW per tonne. So for a Tatra, I'm guessing it's about 4-5 tonnes? That's only 30kW in total, so that's about 1000x smaller power than the little nuclear reactor linked above. Even being approximate, a reactor 100x smaller would fit on the Tatra. Approximately, the reactor would fit between the rear and front wheels, not intruding on cabin space at all. It's possible, but if we're talking of having algae farms, it's gotta have some form of combustion engine.
Logged

cameni

  • Brano Kemen
  • Outerra Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6621
  • Pegs is clever, but tae hain’t a touch sentimental
    • outerra.com
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2013, 02:31:08 pm »

Tatras are heavy trucks. T817 8x8 has max weight 38 tonnes.
Logged

ZeosPantera

  • ||>>-Z-<<||
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2518
  • #1 Outerra Fan Boy
    • My Youtube
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2013, 04:23:49 pm »

According to that page the cargo weight is 24700 so that is heavier than the truck isn't it?.. Are the units in the editor KG?

Actually if you don't mind could you briefly go over some of the units used in the editor? EF probably doesn't convert easily to a single HP/TQ figure but some of the other items must have a real world grounding.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 04:30:01 pm by ZeosPantera »
Logged
"Fear accompanies the possibility of death, Calm shepherds its certainty" - General Ka Dargo

cameni

  • Brano Kemen
  • Outerra Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6621
  • Pegs is clever, but tae hain’t a touch sentimental
    • outerra.com
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2013, 04:38:10 pm »

Most of the units are in the SI standard system. I tried to put the units in square brackets on the wiki, where possible. For some parameters I don't know the units, or they are so crude approximations that the units don't help anyway. I will need to go over them analyzing the sources. I think the suspension is expressed in a normalized form, independent of vehicle mass.
Logged

GHAO

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Thinking
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2013, 02:15:28 pm »

38 tonnes! Blimey! Fits within my vague approximations still though, nuclear fuel is still an option. :P
Logged

ZeosPantera

  • ||>>-Z-<<||
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2518
  • #1 Outerra Fan Boy
    • My Youtube
Re: 8x8 Discussion (Let's Talk Specs)
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2013, 03:03:49 pm »

Well if the truck is coded at 14000 SI (Standard Imperial) than the truck only weighs 7 tons. Which seems low.
Logged
"Fear accompanies the possibility of death, Calm shepherds its certainty" - General Ka Dargo
Pages: 1 [2] 3