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Author Topic: Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever  (Read 13622 times)

s0beit

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« on: April 30, 2011, 04:44:12 am »

Well, this has been a dream of mine as long as i started pondering ideas in relation to video games, i had seen Grand Theft Auto 2, then 3 and more, ARMA and all these simulators that i thought were quite amusing and while they sort of captured the idea, none of them were satisfactory.

I thought it would take decades to allow my idea to be technically possible, but here's Outerra, being awesome.

My idea is fairly simple, it's a sort of technocratic world simulator. I'll have to explain.

First, you start off in a world completely empty and devoid of any form of technology, states, cities etc. It's just people. These people then gather resources, craft them into productive items to start industry and declare land as their own, forming cities, then later states.

The leaders of these states could set permissions specific to a group of people, an example would be allowing the state to build roads, or everyone, or specific productive entities (like in-game companies) and the same could apply to anything else.

To write laws, people assigned to write laws must use a scripting engine to define what the terms of those laws are. If somebody reports some one for a violation, it refers to the scripting engine and if they have violated a law it then alerts the authorities if any at all.

There could be entire nations, armies, police, road systems, railways, plane systems and etc. based off of this system alone. Back to crafting, resources should be accumulated in the same way they are in real life. People mine for it, drill for it and so on. It would be a race of technology and advancement and allow people to stick together and build their idea society.

It would also have local squabbles, wars and so on.

The basic idea is to let a massive amount of players loose on this completely open, script-able world and build the world as the world today was built.

People are granted one account per life, if you die that's it (goes for people in the army, police, politicians, citizens - everyone). You could remove things like hunger, fatigue (because people do have real lives too) but otherwise people would be completely left to their own devices to accumulate wealth in the world, run nations, businesses, political parties and so on.

I basically want a complete real-world simulator, the worst of things and the best of things combined into one mega-planetary MMO. You could be a policeman enforcing the law, a member of the army going to war, a politician writing laws (ideas for laws anyway, script writers would have to write them ultimately), a shady black market weapons dealer, political radical, businessman, construction worker (custom modelers who could submit their works?) or any combination of the above.

That is my dream, yet to be realized and probably won't be until long after I'm dead :D

What do you think?

(It should be mentioned there is games like Wurm online which captured a fair amount of this, people gather resources and clear land full of trees and stone to build roads, houses and later other productive things. Pretty fun but set in another reality and incomplete)
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cameni

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2011, 05:36:38 am »

Some interesting idea there. I would like the laws in RL to be written as script too, executed by computers. Justice for all :)

But basically it is similar to the world-building game idea described elsewhere on the forums here, though there we are trying to come up with a design that is realizable incrementally. In contrast to starting from the technological roots we decided to use another scenario - a recolonization of abandoned earth using a slightly post modern technology, so that people can in fact explore and utilize the large areas presented here. In stone age you'd hardly be able to cover much of the land in your lifetime. And how fast the time should flow there btw?

Another thing is, your idea is prone to destruction by griefers. Simulating real life without the real life penalties would lead to entirely different society than we've got now, though in fact it would be interesting to know what it would look like if you could die only out of boredom. Someone should write a novel about it :)

Yet another aspect is that real life issues will seep into the virtual world. Religions, nationalism .. though it doesn't have to be a bad thing per se, I think the game must be designed with all these issues in mind, exploiting them rather than ending up being devoured by them.
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RaikoRaufoss

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2011, 11:22:55 am »

Sounds nice to me.  A whole new world to explore and create. :)
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s0beit

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2011, 12:07:10 pm »

Time should elapse just as real life time elapses, if not slower to account for people's jobs or schooling or whatnot, i wouldn't exactly like laws to be executed by scripting in RL myself, there's always script writers to blame  :lol:

Anyway, yes you can grant them current technology and not have them all have to start off from nothing, although, starting everyone off from nothing i think would actually be fine since people in the game would be constantly improving the world, you could make the progression of technology a lot faster (people wouldn't actually have to invent vehicles, just gain enough experience or what-have-you to be able to create it) as for not being able to cover a lot of land, it doesn't seem to be a problem for most people who are online in "Wurm", you give them all one starting point and have them build and build, you could allow users to store their own spawn points later on (so let's say somebody travels far outside the inhabited zone, starts building with friends, they could be teleported back there when they reconnect) of course this makes them travel there in the first place, always, you could solve that by allowing people to create teleportation hubs OR you could force them to use vehicles/boats/cars whatever. I guess it depends what gameplay elements are important to you.

An online game called "eRepublik" solved this (teleportation hubs) by not allowing moving (teleporting) from state to state if you're at war with that state.

As for being "prone to destruction by griefers", i doubt it. Remember that the head of the states, if any, decide to write their own laws. They can be enforced, too. Obviously in this world i suspect with the expansion and building of communities being central that getting a hold of weapons/vehicles what-have-you to massively kill one another wouldn't be an easy task.

You could make restrictions that for example, like Wurm, you can't destroy people's property without first being granted access rights for their property.

You could limit people to one account, per payment option, per life. That is, you can only have one life (at a time) tied to one payment option (credit card or debit or something of that nature, if it were your intention to charge for this, or, if it's free to play you could only allow "advanced" features to paying members).

I don't have a problem with real life issues being involved is a bad thing at all. People would form their own communities and thrive or die on their abilities. This goes for war (somebody engages in war with too many states they will obviously be devoured) and everything else. People could choose their community to live in.
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C. Shawn Smith

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2011, 12:07:47 pm »

I've always liked the idea of perma-death in games, but it's just not feasible and will lead to too much player frustration.  Griefers would get upset when a low level manages to kill them, and low levels would be easy prey for them.  Too difficult to balance.

Dying out of boredom ... hmm :)
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s0beit

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2011, 12:16:24 pm »

Going back to the griefer aspect, i suspect just like in real life it will be sorted out. People would know that in the game every citizen in your state is important and wouldn't like to see them die, and death should be realistic.

Nobody should die from being shot in the foot a bunch of times, so, there would obviously be hospitals and things of that nature. Maybe you could make it like GTA or some other MMOs where if they die they start back at the beginning, or at the very least lose all their money and resources (and/or positions of power) at their disposal.

The only way a low-level person would be able to kill you, I'd imagine, is if they bought a gun as low level (not really possible, since I'd imagine they would be expensive in peace-time), went up to somebody and shot them directly in the brain (since death would be realistic, it is sort of hard to actually kill people without shooting them in a vital place) in which case all the time they've spent up to that point would have been wasted because

A) Police would be alerted and he would be hunted down, which is an aspect of the game police forces would thrive off of, i think. It could be quite fun to chase down and fight these people. (and i guess you could make in-game penalties, if you kill some one and are caught you should be banned from the state or have your account suspended or something, if it were unlawful or "griefing")
B) The friends of the people killed would just kill him right back, then the murderer loses all his time and effort spent (which would have to have been days or weeks at that point)

Finally, there could be protections against that. Just like in real life people can wear items which decreases their likelihood of being killed and etc.

I do admit it would be a tough balance and it would make a lot of people angry, you don't necessarily have to lose _everything_ each time you die, it would be a fun trying to figure out ways to enforce the law, though.

EDIT:

Finally, two things.

If somebody could move this to the proper forum (here, sorry) i would be grateful.

Also imagine space programs and travelling to other worlds, eventually :o
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C. Shawn Smith

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2011, 12:39:44 pm »

Quote
The only way a low-level person would be able to kill you, I'd imagine,

You don't know me very well ;).  I'm the guy that makes higher level PvPers REALLY angry.
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What we think, we become -- Buddha
There is no spoon -- Neo, The Matrix
The Cosmos is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be. -- Carl Sagan
Outerra is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be. -- Me :)
- Yes, I'm still around ... just been busy with other projects ;)

s0beit

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2011, 01:27:39 pm »

Quote from: cshawnsmith
Quote
The only way a low-level person would be able to kill you, I'd imagine,

You don't know me very well ;).  I'm the guy that makes higher level PvPers REALLY angry.

You don't know ME very well, I'm the guy who used to grief games from 14 to 20 as a hobby. Google it  :D

I think the only logical way to prevent griefing is to make it impractical, requiring so much effort they just give up, lol.

If you thought you could lose a months work by griefing, you would either not do it or are slightly insane  :D

I've played Roleplay modes in garrysmod, even with my intention to grief i found myself not doing it to any extreme because i could be banned and lose all my money and effort. It's a powerful motivator.
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C. Shawn Smith

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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2011, 01:42:06 pm »

lol two of a kind then.  If you're familiar with Battlestar Galactica, and the Battlestar Galactica Online, I could tell you how a certain Cylon level 3 player really PO'd a NUMBER of very high level Colonial Viper pilots a few days ago ;).  The other Cylons couldn't believe a level 3 were taking them to combat school.

Needless to say (again, if you know the series), I would have made Scar proud. :lol:
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What we think, we become -- Buddha
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The Cosmos is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be. -- Carl Sagan
Outerra is all that is, or ever was, or ever will be. -- Me :)
- Yes, I'm still around ... just been busy with other projects ;)

Lawrs

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2011, 01:42:43 pm »

HD Minecraft
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Redrobes

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2011, 10:32:07 am »

I started writing the very basic starting point of your app and posted up some results in the guild...

http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?11689

Its a very hard problem to even start. But then I think you know this already.

I made mine a transactional analysis based thing where the basis was that each bot would try to maximize his wealth by doing a search of all the transactional options open to him based on his skill set and economics. Just getting this bit going was extreme so how you scope that up even further I dont know. Still, I share your long term vision here. Would be good to have a large PC cluster doing all the bot economics and then all the people drop into that world and do the 3D sim on the top.

The movies of the sim start at post #30.

As I mention near the end of the thread, the difficulty is in the debug. When it goes wrong you need to know why and the state to get the mishap to occur might involve a huge amount of iterative run before you get to the point where just the right conditions occur to see it. To be honest, all iterative state apps are a nightmare to write.

Spudly

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2011, 03:42:30 pm »

Quote from: Redrobes
I started writing the very basic starting point of your app and posted up some results in the guild...

http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?11689

Its a very hard problem to even start. But then I think you know this already.

I made mine a transactional analysis based thing where the basis was that each bot would try to maximize his wealth by doing a search of all the transactional options open to him based on his skill set and economics. Just getting this bit going was extreme so how you scope that up even further I dont know. Still, I share your long term vision here. Would be good to have a large PC cluster doing all the bot economics and then all the people drop into that world and do the 3D sim on the top.

The movies of the sim start at post #30.

As I mention near the end of the thread, the difficulty is in the debug. When it goes wrong you need to know why and the state to get the mishap to occur might involve a huge amount of iterative run before you get to the point where just the right conditions occur to see it. To be honest, all iterative state apps are a nightmare to write.


I think this kind of thing would work as the basis for a few different game ideas.  It would be really nice to have the economy actually run like this as appose to some simulated method.  Imagine the changes you would see happen to your city when you connected a railroad or airport to it!  This would also be a good way of inspiring people to be adventurous in trying to hold the more precious resources.
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Grind and Click

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2011, 08:27:12 am »

Is my idea close to yours would you say s0beit?

This is taken from my ArmA: Online idea.

Quote
Ive refined my idea down to a basic i think.

Get given the tools to mine, and develop a military force/base that you can upgrade over time down to individual soldiers weapons and camo etc all modeled on a sim level so that even if you just want to fly from a destination to another then you can and get the same enjoyment as you would in Xplane.

Track other bases with a degree of difficulty and using your own tactics as was suggested by cameni with radio signals and base radio "noise",  have some content developed in the world with perhaps citys as safe/trade zones and get kicked out into the world and see what happens...

Basically like a game of "Warfare", that multiplayer gamemode ArmA has where you have to capture towns to buy more units from your heavy armour building, air building, light vehicle and infantry buildings, all set out a bit like command and conquer, now just slow that play way down and make mineing the task? See how long you can last before you have to withdraw?
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sanyigz

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Strangest most impossible awesome idea ever
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2011, 11:13:05 am »

Quote from: Lawrs
HD Minecraft

LOL i thought exactly the same :)

BTW very good idea, but i think it's impossible, it needs huge efforts.
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chochote

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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2011, 12:16:40 am »

The overall idea I think is kite good, but I think a few changes must be done:

1.- Killing/Murder aspect: If someone kills anyone, without their countries/states/cities being at war, the murderer account should be banned or suspended for at least a week, and the victim should respawn without delays. Regardless the in-game law (If not, It will be a complete anarchy, the 'virtual' police force wouldn't be able to handle the amount of people willed to brake the law, specially the kids... or terrorist... believe me).

2.- Transport: I will like to see a realistic way of transport. I don't think people will want to travel the entire world by teleport, doing so does not represent a challenge, and you're in the world I assume to challenge yourself. And if so, teleportation should have a penalty against realistic transport. I'm an aviation enthusiast and I will love to feel the responsibility of having 200 souls that depends on your skills. To avoid anyone without knowledge to fly an airliner (or  to drive a train, or bus, you name it) a test must be approved (as in real life).

3.- Laws: I agree with the laws part, but regardless of the in-game laws, there should be a list of master laws, unbreakable and above all in-game laws. In a way where if you make an in-game law that defies one of the master laws, the 2nd one will prevail. Examples:

- You shall not kill if your countries aren't at war
- You shall not promote or protect pedophilia
- You shall not promote racism in any form
etc

This needs to be done of course, to be 'real life compliant' sort of... If not, you could have a country that ban black people or white people, or gay, etc, or promote pedophilia (with potential pedophiles and kids behind the keyboard, that's a call for disaster)

I'm probably missing some points, but when you're creating a real world alike game, the amount of things to be consider will be directly proportional to the complexity of the world.

Nothing that can't be solved, though  :cool:
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