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[bomber]

Caameni, I understand 3)

And by definition Outerra is in compliance with it...

What it's talking about is the original file format, basically how would anyone feel (this has happened to me) if you spend hundreds of hours on a texture and then find that it's being used on a pay to play "wings over Dover" game or similair... Artists don't like that.

But Outerra distributes the 3d in OTX file format.... and the 2d in DDS format, neither of these means that the player has the original artwork on their hard-drive.

Also Outerra doesn't allow you to once you've loaded the game, export the 3d or 2d into a working 3d file format..

Outerra is covered...

Simon

BTW... is there any chance that the jsbsim FDM files could be subsumed into the OTX format... this is not for that same reason (ie copyright) but to stop players from 'hacking' the flight model into an Uber plane...

[Uriah]

Well, technically the dds format is open, only with slight compression loss.

I'm still waiting for further clearification from TurboSquid, and I also contacted a friend who has experience with this kind of IP.

Exporting 3d mesh, sure OT is covered. But the way that is worded, I'm not sure what the importing clause means.

Simon, what do you think on manufacturers filing lawsuits for using their aircraft in a game, albeit commercially or non-commercially...?

Regards,
Uriah

[Uriah]

BTW... is there any chance that the jsbsim FDM files could be subsumed into the OTX format... this is not for that same reason (ie copyright) but to stop players from 'hacking' the flight model into an Uber plane...

How would that be done?

[bomber]

No DDS isn't... a complex 2d texture uses multiple layers and 'in application' blending techneques... the DDS format is flat with no way of getting back to the original.

Importing.... flightgear uses .ac file format for it's 3d, so every users has 'master' files of all planes on their hard-drive.

I believe Grunman filed law suits... image rights are an issue but there are different understandings of it through out the world, for instance the UK laws are very different to the US. (see the latest ruling on Rhiana and topshop)

I'd suggest that all splash screens use some disclaimer " this vehicle doesn't not represent the manufactuer blah blah blah"

[bomber]

Which bit the 'hacking' or the including into the OTX file...

AS for how the later could be done.... well the jsbsim .xml files are only read on vehicle initialisation into the JSBsim C++ program.... so what I'm hinting at is could there not be a step inwhich Outerra lets JSBsim to look somewhere else ie the OTX file, line xxx

[Uriah]

Locking up the FDM could actually be necessary for certain purposes, however in general I would never want to see the FDM become a closed access, or any measures to prevent people from modding any aircraft in anyway they see fit. Besides obfuscating intellectual property of an FDM, which I strongly don't agree with, I do not see a need to prevent tampering with the FDM, it is the whole idea behind making a 'mod' or modding. I think if someone want to make an anti-gravity helicopter that shoots flowers, they can do what they like to the FDM and script on their own computer. For multiplayer, there are techniques for making sure people aren't cheating.

Regards,
Uriah

[bomber]

I'm only interested in people not cheating in a multi-player combat sim environment.... so I'm not against people having access to the fdm files only for finding a working solution/techneques to prevent people from cheating, and the first idea I came up with was to use the OTX file when on a multi-player server.

After 8 years of flying on Targetware and being told how uncheatable is was, I knew it wasn't. Now when a fellow flyer accused others of cheating and this pilot was then castigated and told it was impossible I simply showed them how easy it was online to fly a WWII capital ship.... trust me nothing brings cheating home than coming across the bismark at 10,000ft.

So for a combat sim this subject has to be NAILED to ensure 100% trust, otherwise players will simply not fly.

[PytonPago]

 ... bismark at 10,000ft.

[HiFlyer]

Locking up the FDM could actually be necessary for certain purposes, however in general I would never want to see the FDM become a closed access, or any measures to prevent people from modding any aircraft in anyway they see fit. Besides obfuscating intellectual property of an FDM, which I strongly don't agree with, I do not see a need to prevent tampering with the FDM, it is the whole idea behind making a 'mod' or modding. I think if someone want to make an anti-gravity helicopter that shoots flowers, they can do what they like to the FDM and script on their own computer. For multiplayer, there are techniques for making sure people aren't cheating.

Regards,
Uriah

Pretty much agree. In a pure gaming environment, I could see the need more, but Outerra is meant to be a sim, yes? Which means enthusiasts with the knowledge are always going to want to be perfecting and tweaking those files. Including purple polkadot VTOL giraffes.

Or borrowing one for a Veritech fighter.........

So in principle, I would prefer something that simply confirmed the unaltered nature of files, rather than locking files totally.

[PytonPago]

Locking up the FDM could actually be necessary for certain purposes, however in general I would never want to see the FDM become a closed access, or any measures to prevent people from modding any aircraft in anyway they see fit. Besides obfuscating intellectual property of an FDM, which I strongly don't agree with, I do not see a need to prevent tampering with the FDM, it is the whole idea behind making a 'mod' or modding. I think if someone want to make an anti-gravity helicopter that shoots flowers, they can do what they like to the FDM and script on their own computer. For multiplayer, there are techniques for making sure people aren't cheating.

Regards,
Uriah

Pretty much agree. In a pure gaming environment, I could see the need more, but Outerra is meant to be a sim, yes? Which means enthusiasts with the knowledge are always going to want to be perfecting and tweaking those files. Including purple polkadot VTOL giraffes.

Or borrowing one for a Veritech fighter.........

So in principle, I would prefer something that simply confirmed the unaltered nature of files, rather than locking files totally.

 ... scooping the files for matching the servers one and when not, replacing (maybe best if it would even automatically save the olds somewhere, to not loose someones work, if he tweaked it in the right sim spirit) ... how does nowadays something like that work ? Do such games just look at the file-size/creation date, or are they capable of going trough the antire script line after line ?

 ... maybe textures could be an exeption there. Paint-personalization was heawy ever since IL2. 

[bomber]

So in principle, I would prefer something that simply confirmed the unaltered nature of files, rather than locking files totally.

Agreed, only it was this approach that I hacked with 30 secs of thinking.

[HiFlyer]

Locking up the FDM could actually be necessary for certain purposes, however in general I would never want to see the FDM become a closed access, or any measures to prevent people from modding any aircraft in anyway they see fit. Besides obfuscating intellectual property of an FDM, which I strongly don't agree with, I do not see a need to prevent tampering with the FDM, it is the whole idea behind making a 'mod' or modding. I think if someone want to make an anti-gravity helicopter that shoots flowers, they can do what they like to the FDM and script on their own computer. For multiplayer, there are techniques for making sure people aren't cheating.

Regards,
Uriah

Pretty much agree. In a pure gaming environment, I could see the need more, but Outerra is meant to be a sim, yes? Which means enthusiasts with the knowledge are always going to want to be perfecting and tweaking those files. Including purple polkadot VTOL giraffes.

Or borrowing one for a Veritech fighter.........

So in principle, I would prefer something that simply confirmed the unaltered nature of files, rather than locking files totally.

 ... scooping the files for matching the servers one and when not, replacing (maybe best if it would even automatically save the olds somewhere, to not loose someones work, if he tweaked it in the right sim spirit) ... how does nowadays something like that work ? Do such games just look at the file-size/creation date, or are they capable of going trough the antire script line after line ?

 ... maybe textures could be an exeption there. Paint-personalization was heawy ever since IL2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PunkBuster

And of course, after spending a zillion dollars, even punkbuster gets punked occasionally so its an ongoing war of the program against the cheaters, which can be an expensive proposition and honestly, probably a losing war.

Good luck deciding if its worth it, or not.

[Uriah]

Does punkbuster use checksums?

I'll have to look into that.

But regardless, people won't be able to cheat. I was in a multiplayer combat game and one of the guys got called out because he had no recoil on his rifle. It is possible to cheat but you can just implement something that patches the vulnerabilities people use to cheat and ban them for antigravity!

However, there are reasons you might want to protect an FDM's content in a commercial game.

Regards,
Uriah

[HiFlyer]

Does punkbuster use checksums?

I'll have to look into that.

But regardless, people won't be able to cheat. I was in a multiplayer combat game and one of the guys got called out because he had no recoil on his rifle. It is possible to cheat but you can just implement something that patches the vulnerabilities people use to cheat and ban them for antigravity!

However, there are reasons you might want to protect an FDM's content in a commercial game.

Regards,
Uriah

Check through the published features. One of which is:

PunkBuster Servers can be configured to instruct clients to calculate partial MD5 hashes of files inside the game installation directory. The results are compared against a set configuration and differences logged, and optionally, the client removed from the server.

[Uriah]

Exactly, MD5 hashes are checksums used to verify the player is not using different files than the ones recognized by the host server.

Regards,
Uriah