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Author Topic: So whut tha' heck is this?  (Read 80920 times)

bomber

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2015, 03:31:42 pm »

I'm unhappy....
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HiFlyer

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2015, 03:59:39 pm »

Well, a deal was made, and that picture was withdrawn. I don't want to cause arguments or trouble. I just want things to be fair.
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bomber

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2015, 04:18:24 pm »

Well a couple of posts today by the new golden boy, in that forum and the flight modelling forum smacks of too much politics for me...

The whole of the 3d Engine forum needs burning to the ground and starting again.
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HiFlyer

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2015, 05:09:48 pm »

Well a couple of posts today by the new golden boy, in that forum and the flight modelling forum smacks of too much politics for me...

The whole of the 3d Engine forum needs burning to the ground and starting again.

If they get something done it will hopefully be a good thing. And some people who were very arrogant, rude, dismissive and otherwise, can watch as people move past cynicism and actually just go ahead and do something to advance the hobby. I'll applaud that. Just make the selection process fair, in such a way that nobody can have doubts.

I'm hoping to see just as thorough a look at Unity, and maybe even Proland, and it would probably be nice if a few full versions of Outerra were offered for evaluation as well.
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HiFlyer

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2015, 06:02:51 pm »

@josem75 Anti-aliasing!!!  :o =D =D =D =D =D
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cameni

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2015, 01:28:28 am »

If they get something done it will hopefully be a good thing. And some people who were very arrogant, rude, dismissive and otherwise, can watch as people move past cynicism and actually just go ahead and do something to advance the hobby. I'll applaud that. Just make the selection process fair, in such a way that nobody can have doubts.

I'm hoping to see just as thorough a look at Unity, and maybe even Proland, and it would probably be nice if a few full versions of Outerra were offered for evaluation as well.

It's not a full version they wanted, but a SDK. Which simply isn't there at the level that third party game devs could use, which is why at the moment any project can only work with our participation. Not because we won't anyone play with it. If a competent and serious developer showed up, we could talk about ways of business and development cooperation, but we simply can't afford to lose time vainly.

Sorry if I spoil it for you - to me these guys look to be just another bunch of dreamers that do not have any game development experience behind them, yet they are going to take on one of the most complex of things. The newly appointed "golden boy", as bomber wrote, has a long experience in using 3D offline rendering software, you may have noticed that he only recently stopped mentioning Terragen in every post. I'm still reading their posts from time to time and sadly smiling at some constructs that are being warmly received, while they tend to suppress and ignore every sign of a real experience like bomber's ("we want your experience, just don't talk about things we do not want to hear").

Originally I though that the SIM-Posium was going to be a gathering of those sim enthusiasts who actively want to support development of a new generation simulator, a sub-group of the flight sim base. What it wanted to achieve (and how) was unclear to me, but I thought ok, we'll see. However, over time it's appearing that they simply want to launch their own Kickstarter based on an idea of a next-gen sim, then use the money to hire and control real developers that will implement the ideas for them. Reminds me of countless number of guys who are regularly approaching us, no prior stuff done, no useful capabilities, but they want to direct and control creation of their dream MMO game, and see themselves in position of CEO and ideas provider. Can you imagine how that would work?

Luke's comment over at Avsim was spot on:
Quote
Think about that for a minute. I'm not a brain surgeon, nor have a played on on TV. But one of my daughters has had brain surgery (and well, I've had surgery) and it's complicated, imprecise and expensive. Not to mention dangerous. I'll set up the "Nex-Gen Brain Surgery" internet forum, and ask lots of neurosurgeons and hospitals and health ministry officials to participate. What do you expect their reaction to be? Substitute any other discipline and the reaction will be the same.

So you get a company with no track record, with clueless management handing out money of not their own. What could possibly go wrong?
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necro

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2015, 02:08:30 am »

What could possibly go wrong? I guess nothing, because the idea counts. Therefore each 16 year old MMO-Boy creates and successfully releases his own Onlie MMO. Just by hireing his friend, which wants to learn html and php for game development.

Sarcasmn beside, this sim community will fail until they have a clear structure. Democracy has no place in making projects. The verbal war between Luke and this other dude (mrsbrace or something like that) shows two alpha wolves which wont ever work together. And what the hell is a next-gen flight sim? Is unigine even made for making worlds? I just see questions, and empty eyecatching marketing words. The actual question is, why dont they create content for OT? They dont need the OT sdk for importing planes and setting them up. Even auto piloting could work without using the sdk. Behaving like a big player is not smart for a small project team with no experience.
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Acetone

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2015, 03:00:36 am »

What could possibly go wrong?

Oh, something can go really wrong.

If they end up convincing a few people to jump in, manage to produce a few videos and screens with Unigine, and launch the Kickstarter campaign, something bad can happen:

- Option n°1, the flight-sim community don't follow the project (majority of users seem to be concerned mainly by the lack of experience of this team) and the kickstarter is a failure. Future crowd funding projects of the same type will automatically be considered as suspect because of this.

- Option n°2, even worse, they gather the interest of a non-savvy crowd attracted by the promises and the screenshots (managing to get a good looking scene in the Unigine must be the simplest part of their project). They hire several devs but the money and the lack of experience of this team will certainly attract scammers. Without a real understanding of the structural management of a software project, with devs scattered around the world (I don't think they can manage to get enough to create a real brick and mortar office), the projects will really quick sink under bugs/criticism. People will start to ask why the demo is limited to a single area, why physics are bad, why this, why that. These guys (which I think have for the most part an honest enthusiasm) will only have a broken and unfinished dream in their hand, and for only choice to kill the project. Same result than the previous option, this will only generate suspicion from Flight-sim users and you will see things like : "this is a proof that nothing is possible outside FSX/X-Plane" everywhere.

Honestly, I don't even think they will reach the kickstarter step. If they are not fools, they will realize quickly that it's a really hard task. I just hope that no scammer will be involved, convincing them that launching the project is possible and enjoying free cash for nothing. As you said, a SIM-posium was a good idea for a single place to present innovative projects for the future of simulations. But it's not a place to conduct a project.

It's a bit frustrating to see so much people think that money can make miracles. Without long researches, thinking, design and skills money generate nothing except bad products. It's just a tool, and one which don't work really well with dreams.
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Revolver

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2015, 05:34:15 am »

Instead of doing what the useful, you argue here about insignificant things as if does not give what the better. :facepalm:
Power to you rather in the socks and finds to me to pair of useful hangar architect's plans instead of writing four sides WTF, who to whom on the shoes has peed. :P
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KW71

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2015, 08:39:26 am »


"None so blind, that those who do not want to see".


One guy:

"We need an engine that will do as much of the gruntwork for us as possible thereby saving us as much time, effort and money as possible".

After:

"Even with Unigine there is a fundamental design limitation for large-scale flight simulation: flat earth terrain model".

Yep... almost nothing...


Other guy:

"At least their engine can support large flat worlds".

After:

"Yah, now I can kind of see how a flat world might create some problems".

Really? This guy could help:



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HiFlyer

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2015, 10:14:21 am »

Guy's, don't forget that for some, Outerra itself inspires skepticism for various reasons. Yet here we are, drawn together by the belief that something good is happening here, and that some of us can help.

Could Nexgen sim etc fail? Of course! In fact, the many people who listed the reasons why had some valid points. But...... however slim the odds, they might actually succeed, to a greater or lesser degree, and I will take ten cross-eyed, one armed monkeys trying to build a lean-to to shelter from a storm, over 100 soaking wet engineers announcing the materials are not available for a mansion, any day.  =D

I'm curious to see what happens. (I have a raincoat)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 10:33:35 am by HiFlyer »
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bomber

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2015, 01:57:02 pm »

Cameni, I understand your above comments however the last paragraph I could do with some clarification.

Let me explain where I'm coming from so as you can understand my expectations.

I wish to create an online multi-player WWII bomber crew sim, as a living evolving memorial.

I have no wish to control you guys, I might ask for some feature or another but it'll be more so as to let me get on with my stuff, like an improved tool or something like that... there won't be any clouds type requests as if I can see it needs something like that then so can you and I trust you'll get round to it in all good time.

I'm not after making money, if we sell T-shirts at an airshow and use the money for server costs then that's about it... I don't expect those playing it to have to pay either other than the one off nominal licence fee and certainly not a monthly fee. Look if the sim goes viral and it looks like there could be large amounts of money to be made by Outerra charging for monthly playtime then I guess a rethink would be in order. But also if a WWII bomber sim goes viral to that extent, then we've done something pretty amazing and you'll have far bigger revenue streams to concentrate on.

I read you say that if there's an interest in a flight sim then Outerra would set up it's own dedicated sim team and it's there involvement that I'd personally like clearing up..

I don't wish to tell you how to run your business, but I'd hope that this dedicated Outerra sim team wasn't spending it's time creating content for a flight sim, but instead was creating functionality that a community team could use to create content..

Yeh I know you've seen the community in action over on other forums, it's not pretty but it's a cultural issue that's been allowed to develop and it's not something I partake in.

I genuinely like it here, it has a nice feel this forum and I congratulate you on that. There's a level of mutual respect that comes across from the Outerra team towards people that are creating content that not seen in other flight sims. And because of it there's a genuine patience and warmth shown by the community towards the Outerra team, there's an understanding that things take time.

So the question I'm asking is....

Are my expectations of a Target4Today bomber sim using the Outerra engine realistic ?
Should I start to get 'the band' back together again (it's been lonely on my own) with the understanding that Outerra wishes to work with a community dev team ?

or was the idea of a dedicated Outerra sim team a 'closed shop'  that created everything, controlled everything..

Regards

Simon
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CaptTrego

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2015, 04:10:30 pm »

....Should I start to get 'the band' back together again (it's been lonely on my own) with the understanding that Outerra wishes to work with a community dev team ?....

 :O :O :O :O
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bomber

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2015, 04:19:58 pm »

You know you want to get the band back together....
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cameni

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Re: So whut tha' heck is this?
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2015, 05:02:32 pm »

The simulator project was always defined as World Simulator platform. We actually do not have any interest to provide content for the simulator ourselves, not counting the base scenery data (the default world scenery imported from available global data sources).

We expect many 3rd party devs (especially indies) to start creating addons of various types once the platform becomes usable, and I consider some of those who are already making OT mods to become content makers for the platform, even commercial.

Business model would be royalty based but allowing freeware as well, so it should be quite in your hands if you want to monetize it.

The dedicated simulator development team is the one that is supposed to work on specific simulator functionality, while our core team focuses on the world renderer and necessary tools.

Quote
I don't wish to tell you how to run your business, but I'd hope that this dedicated Outerra sim team wasn't spending it's time creating content for a flight sim, but instead was creating functionality that a community team could use to create content..

Yeh I know you've seen the community in action over on other forums, it's not pretty but it's a cultural issue that's been allowed to develop and it's not something I partake in.

That Avsim thread somehow spoiled the meaning of the word "community" for me. We want to continue supporting those who do, not so much the ones who just talk, so I'd rather refer to the former as developers or content makers.

Quote
Are my expectations of a Target4Today bomber sim using the Outerra engine realistic ?
Should I start to get 'the band' back together again (it's been lonely on my own) with the understanding that Outerra wishes to work with a community dev team ?

The only problem is when we'll be actually able to launch the development of the simulator platform. A separate dedicated dev team will require funding, which we could possibly get in a crowd-funding campaign. I doubt it would be possible to set the funding goal to a sum sufficient for a full out of the box simulator (which is assumed to require >2.5mil), given the state of the community, but an incremental development towards an open simulator platform could work with less. In any case, there's still a lot of work we have to do even before launching the campaign, if we want it to succeed.
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