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Author Topic: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction  (Read 8904 times)

Revolver

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Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« on: September 04, 2015, 07:47:44 pm »

Hello dear friends and colleagues,

this is about Fw190 Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction.
The original Fw190 armored glass was 253x478,5x50mm large
and was in 25 ° parallel RBE (fuselage reference level). In this
Demonstration video you can see it and understand what it is about...

Here's a video of a single genuine flying Fw190A-5, where the Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction gets good to see in the cockpit...

So my question is; how can I make the Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction at our Focke in OT?
Who of you has which ideas about ... ::)

BR,
Stefan
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KW71

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2015, 09:15:22 pm »

I think that is not possible at this time... If at some point the engine have render to texture capabilities, perhaps would be possible to do that.  For example, in UDK you could get the image from a camera near the glass position, and use it for texture ussing an offset on the UV layout...
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PytonPago

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2015, 12:12:04 am »

Glass, or thicker than air volumes optics are a bit bad thing. Not sure if one can simulate light-distribution in an engine for such special materials, doe, heat-effects morphing is possible, so, maybe some kind of that effect could be applied within confines of the materials visible surface ? (not sure doe, how its achieved in games) It would be nice even for periscopes, if two such objects would be in OTs optical physics - a mirror and a TTA (best with an option of choosing the thickness of the material and the refraction limiting angle dependance on it). If it would be possible, i would wonder, if it could handle those deformations at uneven places - you can see how the IL-2 flyes up when its on the right side, that the glass is bend at its higher portion, making that squeezing optical effect - doe, it than had to calculate the thickness of the TTA material from all angles the light comes into the "eyes"and correct the deformation for the differences acordingly, so im not sure if it would be possible to implement into OT.   .... but yes, as KW71 said, render to texture is needed for that as salt on bread.

P.S.: How does a german guy have a piece of armoured glass laying around at home just like that !? If thats the power of E-bay, i want one too ! =D
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Revolver

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2015, 09:45:27 am »

First of all thanks you for taking the time.

Well, when I first made the cartridge box for cartridge, I have learned that in OT is not possible with a level
two (front and rear) to demonstrate textures. Therefore, one side will always be transparent. This has now led me to an idea of how I can make it happen, that the refraction, or the like can be made in OT, but only by
Inside. From the outside will stumble on the problem that the parts, which have only one level, will be transparent, and only from a certain perspective, it will be visible. So, something to look at as a solution does not seem to me to be the right way. =|

How to be like, but be solved with Refraction have this thing, because otherwise do not have the correct view from the cockpit.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 09:49:38 am by AH-DG »
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KW71

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2015, 03:20:16 am »

But does your plane have an armored glass so thick? The Apache, for example, seems to have only one of those slices...  If the glass is not too much thick, won't have too much refraction  (if it is flat, of course).
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PytonPago

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2015, 05:16:13 am »

But does your plane have an armored glass so thick? The Apache, for example, seems to have only one of those slices...  If the glass is not too much thick, won't have too much refraction  (if it is flat, of course).

 appache ? ... how thick is that one ? ... i remember our older mi-24s having maybe thin ones, but the facial block is definitely a solid piece of bulletproof windowing (The cockpit glass panels were resistant to 12.7 mm (.50 in caliber) rounds. .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-24) ... i wouldnt think the Apache has anything like a thin slice there aether. Interesting fact. ( Page 558  https://books.google.sk/books?id=rxryAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA558&lpg=PA558&dq=cockpit+glass+panels+apache&source=bl&ots=p_C6ojsgZg&sig=L_Ov4MyMgNSKqiwzrfnxmAQLl-E&hl=sk&sa=X&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAGoVChMI66GV6YfixwIVi74UCh0p4wQH#v=onepage&q=cockpit%20glass%20panels%20apache&f=false)

... also, i dont know much about the physical details of BP-glass, but i suspect those from WWII wont have such a great protection if compared to modern ones (in the same thickness/layering), so i wouldnt see that thick frot-window as a so much off thing, even if just for bird-hits.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 05:19:19 am by PytonPago »
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bomber

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2015, 05:54:46 am »

Pyton, that's not how designers work...

WWII glass and modern glass will have the same primary functionality...  ie bullet stopping.

The difference will be that over the years better glass reduces the weight, thickness, refraction...etc.

WWII,  you need more mass of glass to stop a bullet than modern glass, but the bullet still gets stopped and that's it's job..
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Revolver

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2015, 09:53:38 am »

But does your plane have an armored glass so thick? The Apache, for example, seems to have only one of those slices...  If the glass is not too much thick, won't have too much refraction  (if it is flat, of course).

Yes, the armored glass at 190 was 50mm thick. The trick with armored glass was but that the armored glass was in 25 ° angle, making possible a much better forward visibility.
Please look at the 2nd videos, because as you will see how it was in reality.

This photo shows exactly what it is ...





And here's the armored glass calculation of Nemesis(c) has accomplished...



Perhaps Brano has ideas about that ....? ::)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 10:04:39 am by AH-DG »
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Revolver

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2015, 10:27:26 am »

Here is one more posted in public conversation with J.Carmack.

Quote
Conversation Between Nemesis & Carmack
I've established contact to noone less than the legendary id Software developer Legend John Carmack (creator of Doom, Quake, ect...) and asked him how to model such a refraction effect without raytracing. It's a honor for me to speak to him! Here's what I've learned:
 
Nemesis: "Hi John! Is it possible to calculate refraction of light through armored glass in real time? check:Fw190 Windscreen /youtube"
John Carmack: "Pretty easy to get quite close, but you would need ray tracing to get it exactly right with glass that isn't completely planar."
 
fortunately, the Fw190 Windscreen is completely planar, and shaped like a simple cuboid box!
 
Nemesis: "John, how to model refraction of a rectangular cuboid armor glass without raytracing? I need help on that one...any how-to?"
John Carmack: "The refraction can be baked into a projection matrix. Draw outside the window with this, clear depth, draw inside normally."
John Carmack: "Actually calculating the projection matrix will be a math chore."

Nevertheless, I still do not understand how it can be feasible in OT. Probably my knowledge of 3dr not enough to ...  :-[
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PytonPago

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2015, 01:29:20 am »

Nevertheless, I still do not understand how it can be feasible in OT. Probably my knowledge of 3dr not enough to ...  :-[

  ... dont worry, Cameny, or the comunity takes over at places, where one isnt enough.  ;)


Also, have you somewhere in those manuals a mention of the stopping force of that windscreen ? (or at leat the greatest caliber it should stop) ... 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 01:50:29 am by PytonPago »
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Revolver

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2015, 09:53:33 am »

Nevertheless, I still do not understand how it can be feasible in OT. Probably my knowledge of 3dr not enough to ...  :-[

  ... dont worry, Cameny, or the comunity takes over at places, where one isnt enough.  ;)


Also, have you somewhere in those manuals a mention of the stopping force of that windscreen ? (or at leat the greatest caliber it should stop) ...

far as I know, the armored glass could stop the '50cal (Brauning / 50cal), but only 1 hit...

unfortunately is not in the document, as I can make it in 3rd ...  =| :)) ;)
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PytonPago

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2015, 02:42:24 am »


far as I know, the armored glass could stop the '50cal (Brauning / 50cal), but only 1 hit...


For that time, its quite impressive indeed.
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KW71

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Re: Question about Armor Glass Windscreen Refraction
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2015, 02:42:34 pm »



Balistic prevention is about 1130 kg of airframe (from Teledyne Ryan Aeronautical).

Light boron armour - (Ceradyne), sides, cabin decking, front/back cabin - can resist 23mm HEI shot.

Kevlar pilot seats - (Simula)

Anti presswave acrylat shield - (Sierracin)

Glasses - (PPG Industries)
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