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Author Topic: Lighting and Colouring  (Read 23437 times)

Peca

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2015, 11:42:36 am »

Correct me if I am wrong, but now is the atmospheric scattering only one number for the whole planet, right?

I think that is the problem, because in real world the value of atmospheric scattering can be very different from almost zero to some high values depending on weather (and air pollution). So I hope this will be solved together with other weather related things creating locally specific light conditions - cloud shadows, fogs, smoke, rain, etc...
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2015, 11:43:18 am »

In the last few days I have been playing with Outerra color settings for the same reasons mentioned in this thread. I think the land colors in Outerra sometimes don't look natural, and I mentioned it in my "The grass must die!" thread.

In fact I almost opened a new thread a few days ago, but I didn't want to keep beating the same horse, and I trust the developers will eventually do something, though I think what they really need (for a number of reasons) is a good artist and some content creation people.

One of the main problems seems to come from the interaction of Atmospheric scattering and Outerra land textures, and this is seen best from orbit. Go into orbit and look at the Outerra earth at default settings and you will see very bland and washed-out colors.

Remove or lower atmospheric scattering, and the closer you approach zero, the more natural the outerra earth colors appear, even as the "sky" colors then do very nasty things.

I suspect that the land colors urgently need to be modified to take into account the effects of atmospheric scattering on the overall color balance.

When that might happen is an open question. In the meanwhile I have found that raising the sun intensity to about 50% while lowering the atmospheric scattering settings to your liking before playing with the colors can give a generally pleasing natural effect, and you might want to start from there

Compare this Earth and Outerras from orbit.

In this earth picture we can see the diference.
In fact Outerra use an earth picture itself as texture.  Its the problem in every texturizing job. The picture already has the lighting effects on it. And then in the render will receive again ilumination from the render lights, and atmosphere effects.

In this case its not a developers fault, because the problem for me is the main data. 
I have the blue Marble pics  and i can tweak  them. But unfortunatelly i cant test in outerra because they dont use directl without some vectorization an other tasks.

If they have the Blue data archives ready for the engine, and i can twek them and send back again for re-use in the engine, we could see if it works.

In my proyect i just fix this kind of things and test in every render. I would put the earth picture you posted and try to get the same result.  I would love to do in here. But at the moment its imposible to retouch directly without the developers action. 
I just can offer my time for try to improve a bit the data, and do some test. Maybe with some area for begin.


I opened this thread coz in really, Outerra is awesome. And have just so little things that can be improved for a huge diference.  Coveral in the nature of the colors (grass, sand), in the night mode, etc.
The night i will talk later. But for example for give an idea. I simule the night with the sun at very low power. And the result is amazing..  Just adjusting the night mode to this result, and with some retouch on the moon (could be more white and bright), it would be done.

We are talking here about the "perfection".  There are just details.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 11:48:04 am by josem75 »
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Acetone

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2015, 01:37:00 pm »


 

And here is with some modifications.

You know, I was curious because I noticed the red area in your picture and I had not realized the dirt around the airport is red-ish. So I opened up the Gmap satellite overlay and...



Wow, if you try to forget the pale colors (because of the natural scattering, as seen from space), your modifications are spot-on. I don't now if these kind of modifications will have the same effect on a entire dataset as on a single image, but I'm starting to like the idea :)
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cameni

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2015, 02:15:38 pm »

One of the main problems seems to come from the interaction of Atmospheric scattering and Outerra land textures, and this is seen best from orbit. Go into orbit and look at the Outerra earth at default settings and you will see very bland and washed-out colors.

Remove or lower atmospheric scattering, and the closer you approach zero, the more natural the outerra earth colors appear, even as the "sky" colors then do very nasty things.

Compare this Earth and Outerras from orbit.


Surely you don't want to compare OT with an artistic rendition of Earth ;)

This is a real photo of Earth taken from one million miles away:



Of course, even real photos usually go through Photoshop when they go to the media, and you may bet that they aren't being dulled there.


Blue Marble data are coming from the MODIS satellite and they are already corrected for the atmosphere, i.e they are supposed to be the surface reflectance values. We are currently trying to acquire Landsat surface reflectance data that would allow us creating much more detailed color dataset for OT (30 or even 15m), but I believe theses real colors will still look dull to what people expect to see, for lots of reasons - from the inability of displays to render the colors as we are perceiving them outside, different lighting conditions assumed when looking at an image etc. But a certain part of it is that people are used to movies and artistic rendition to the point of dismissing the dull reality. For that reason there will always be some form of color correction in the pipeline, even if all the data and algorithms were completely physical and realistic, and with ultra-dynamic range displays.

No need to recompile the color dataset if all you want is applying some post-processing effects to the surface reflectance colors stored in OT data. For that I'd have to expose a few coefficients from the color decoding matrix, though it's not really just a simple filter matrix. I guess we'll have to make a few presets suitable for different tastes.
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HiFlyer

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2015, 02:42:31 pm »

I was suspecting there might be possible issues with color enhancement, so I actually choose that picture from the Nasa website. There are also several Nasa movies that tend to support the earth being a bit more colorful, (maybe it loses color from a million miles away?) but I think in the end, its going to depend a bit on the camera and the lighting conditions.

And maybe on color saturation settings!



« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 03:11:35 pm by HiFlyer »
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2015, 05:32:48 pm »

30 or 15m resolution for real??  Then we will need a 2 Tb hard drive just for store all the data (anyway i would do it, its cheap). But u really have that in mind?
Just imagining your engine with this data.. It will be a total revolution.

I suppouse the engine can do the job. The problem should be the amount of thata. And also, i dont know if this data is avaiable for free.  I knew the True Marble paid version. Cost was about 20k $ for all the pack or something like that.  For a big proyect is not that expensive.
But another problem could be the shadows??  But there are also posible fixes for that. But would be several Gb to retouch in Ps..

Outerra with that accurate picture data from earth, allow you to see all the changes, the fields, the croplands..  taking it from 500 to 100 would be already a great jump.


You are right about the digital data. Many times in my proyects i use digital data for cover the area i draw.  Always its the same problem. If i keep the original data, all is unnaturally overcoloured.  Greens and reds are overexposed.  Grass and sand look always a bit fake.
But there are always some tweaks which can fix it a bit. 
If u plan to do a pack for diferent tastes. I offer for do one or more.  Just, i dont know if i can tweak the blue marble directly and send to you.  Or if this data need a previous any job so its you who must send me with this previous job. 
If i can do directly and send, just tell me and we can test some.  Its not too heavy weigh for the today connections.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 06:33:12 am by cameni »
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2015, 06:24:13 pm »


CC

And here is with some modifications.

You know, I was curious because I noticed the red area in your picture and I had not realized the dirt around the airport is red-ish. So I opened up the Gmap satellite overlay and...



Wow, if you try to forget the pale colors (because of the natural scattering, as seen from space), your modifications are spot-on. I don't now if these kind of modifications will have the same effect on a entire dataset as on a single image, but I'm starting to like the idea :)

Those variarions are there behind the greenish and yelowish effect from the data. and behind the lack of contrast. 
Dont know until where would be a fix, probably is easier to do in a single image than in all. But i can guarantee that changing the entire data would at least fix this effect.
This is what i do usually in the proyects with those satelite data. Coz all have the same problem in the render.  Sometimes my data end up so diferent than the original, but at the final looks perfect in the render. So its a matter of test it to get the propper tweak with the outerra render.
But at least those all -ish effects can be fixed giving a more natural colors.

Being more detailed, for example. I would try the himalayas, which i see too brownish.
Retouching the data with time and testing would make posible to obtain nice results i guess. Dont think outerra is diferent of any render (well, its even better, and global).
Also, its posible add details and contrasts. So you see a bit more color changes.
Its all a matter of test.
I dont know if its very dificult to take one area. For example the B1. Which have the himalayas too. And send it to Cameni and test the result. Coz surelly would be necesary a rebuild with the changes. But i suppouse is something that they do often internally. While i know they are full full of tasks more importants.  For that reason, in this thread i will try to offer some suggestions not too dificult and time consuming, but with potential in big nice results. 
I can offer my time. Which is not too much but i would give for this task. Im used to do it.


See another option, in the half of the way, also nice.  I still like the  saturated images. I would not quit the color to outerra. But trying to fix those -Ish problems.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 06:27:26 pm by josem75 »
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HiFlyer

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2015, 07:09:56 pm »

Its also going to depend on your graphics card and your display a bit. I'm using a calibrated IPS display, so I may be more sensitive to color than say a regular display with all sorts of automatic on the fly brightness and contrast adjustments being made.
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2015, 07:27:49 pm »

Another idea.  Would be posible to use the same biomes system on the sea surface? But less complex. Just a plain tile repeated which acquire the global texture color from blue marble, as we see on the ground. Would not be even necesary to make diferent textures. So i guess not necesary any vectorization. 

This should offer a view of the earth with all the real sea colors changes, instead a plain color like now.
Also this would make outerra closer to the Hiflyer artistic picture. Damm, what we are? We are modern artists! (well, you are genius).. )) All its posible.

An example from one of the Blue Marble Tile. (with some exposure for show better here purpose, the real data is always darker)
With a bit of work. Make it less contrasted, making more soft transitions, etc. I also can offer for try it.




And maybe instead a plain color, could have a texture similar like that (its just an example,  but i could work further and make it seamless).


« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 08:36:23 pm by josem75 »
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cameni

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2015, 06:32:29 am »

Quote
This should offer a view of the earth with all the real sea colors changes, instead a plain color like now.
Also this would make outerra closer to the Hiflyer artistic picture. Damm, what we are? We are modern artists! (well, you are genius).. )) All its posible.

Oceans have colors computed from light scattering, that depends on the water depth. Besides, would you really want water color from Blue Marble, where it's clearly stated that it's been done that way just to make the oceans more interesting to look at when the BM data are used as maps. Real color is plain, except for shallow seas.
OT uses physical phenomena rendering to make it parametric. One thing that would be compatible with OT way would be adding maps that define, for example, how much bio stuff is in the sea (amount of oxygen in upper parts and stuff like that) so it can be included in the computation.

Quote
30 or 15m resolution for real??  Then we will need a 2 Tb hard drive just for store all the data (anyway i would do it, its cheap). But u really have that in mind?

The data are wavelet-compressed so the size should be much smaller than that.

Landsat data are available for free, but the amount of processing needed is huge. The main problem are the clouds and the need to stitch the satellite scans together in seamless way. There are providers that offer the processed data, like TruEarth, but the prices start from $39,950 for uncompressed global data. GeoSage has better prices, however these seem to contain many visual artifacts.

We already got data for global 30m forest coverage and water bodies. These also happen to contain the red band of satellite data (together with near-infrared that's used for vegetation density computation), and it may be possible to use it to refine the 500m MODIS color data with it.

Quote
If u plan to do a pack for diferent tastes. I offer for do one or more.  Just, i dont know if i can tweak the blue marble directly and send to you.  Or if this data need a previous any job so its you who must send me with this previous job.
If i can do directly and send, just tell me and we can test some.  Its not too heavy weigh for the today connections.

No, I meant you do not have to modify the input data, I wouldn't even want an arbitrarily modified surface reflectance to be baked in. The modifications should be expressed in the form of some filter coefficients acting on the source surface reflectance data. A post-processing, because that's basically what you want: you want to alter the real reflectance data to suit your taste. I do not know which filter coefficients I'll be able to expose yet, but I guess it generally could be a 4x4 matrix that multiplies the input YUV/veg color vector, or in a simple form a bias and multiplier for each color component. No simple 'shoping :)
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thx_nb

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2015, 07:56:40 am »

I think it's quite interesting how easily the media and 'pictures-made-more-interesting' get to be what we see as 'real'. I really like the way you're handling things to make it as physically realistic as possible.
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2016, 05:37:04 pm »

I think it's quite interesting how easily the media and 'pictures-made-more-interesting' get to be what we see as 'real'. I really like the way you're handling things to make it as physically realistic as possible.

You are right in a big part of your point. And if in the case of the oceans, the textures are artificially made for look more interesting (i really didnt know at all, sorry my fault then, i should see the oceans images  from space inr eal photos), then i preffer the reality too.

But in the other hand.. In textures there are always room for improve. Its the never ending task in 3d job and probably the less math depending. Its coverall work with references and try to get there.
I agree the math base of Outerra is amazing. So in this topic i want try to expose things about light and textures which i think can take even more juice from this great engine.
(if i can get a bit of time from my life and job).
We (the people playing the engine since the begining) are the outerra betatester xD.. And i personally enjoy it a lot. Because i believe in those guys project since the begining. Otherwise i would never loose any time with this.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 06:14:30 pm by josem75 »
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2016, 05:48:19 pm »

By the way, Cameni, or anybody who knows. Is it posible change snow texture color? I was looking for it but the white textures i found was the paint of the road.
I wanted to make texture darker because the bloom is a great effect in outerra, but snow end up burned with it. And loose all the great details snow had in himalayas and other places. GEt just white and even rocks near too
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2016, 06:12:05 pm »

r
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Uriah

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2016, 07:01:04 pm »

You can adjust bloom parameters in eng.cfg like so:

Default:
Code: [Select]
bloom_power = .03,
bloom_threshold = 1.0,

Modified:
Code: [Select]
bloom_power = .01,
bloom_threshold = 0.5,

Also, adjusting the Ground reflectance parameter in the Environment --> Atmosphere tab will effect the resulting bloom.

Regards,
Uriah
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 07:03:08 pm by Uriah »
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