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Author Topic: Lighting and Colouring  (Read 28279 times)

josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2016, 06:38:30 am »

You should test your atmos and color setting at different altitudes and position on earth. I noticed one could look really good at a set location, and completely off at an other one. The best solution would be adaptive presets, switching from one config to an other, specified by latitude, biome, elevation, time of year, day or night...

Hi, you are right. The settings look great in all the conditions.  The aspects i focused was more color, more sharpeness, and more contrast. The 3 things i always wanted to change in OUterra, where all of three aspects  are more difuminated.
This make all look better in any position, even objets. They look more defined and with pure colors.

I will upload more situations (and some video soon). I was preparing one picture of the PIrineos from a plane (have the real picture). So you will look the accurate with the reality.  But i cant change snow conf!  Something very rare. In my world.cfg are not appearing the lines from snow configuration (virtelev and so on). 
NO prob because i have those lines from another game-saves in the past. So i copy-paste lines. But NO effect at all. So my pirineos are not covered in snow like in the pic. 
Anybody experienced that? So rare :(
Note: It seems anytime i open outerra my world.cfg loose those snow lines i add.. I re-paste but no changes, and loose again when open the engine
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 06:49:12 am by josem75 »
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Acetone

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2016, 06:42:29 am »

But i cant change snow conf!  Something very rare. In my world.cfg are not appearing the lines from snow configuration (virtelev and so on). 

Go to your user folder/data/earth/planet.cfg. Snow parameters were moved here as well as various other stuff (forests, clouds, sun,...) :)
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2016, 01:27:10 pm »

But i cant change snow conf!  Something very rare. In my world.cfg are not appearing the lines from snow configuration (virtelev and so on). 

Go to your user folder/data/earth/planet.cfg. Snow parameters were moved here as well as various other stuff (forests, clouds, sun,...) :)
Thank you!
Here you have a picture from comercial airplane altitude 10.500 mt.

Picture reference, real picture from airplane



This is my final result



Default settings from outerra



Intermediate personalized conf




« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 01:31:31 pm by josem75 »
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cameni

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2016, 05:01:58 pm »

Picture reference, real picture from airplane

No. A picture captured by a camera, that was adjusted by the camera software and photoshop. You may like the adjustments, but it's not real. It's actually hard to define what "real" means; we would be talking spectrum and raw intensities, but brain does a lot of magic with white balance and color perception.
Personally I can say I have never seen anything bluish and contrasting like that from aircraft. The pictures look nice, in some way, but they also feel artificial to me, just like promo photos from sea resorts or similar.

One day we'll add postprocess settings for saturation and contrast and maybe make some presets so everyone can pick one aligned with their bias ;)
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2016, 08:19:20 am »

Picture reference, real picture from airplane

No. A picture captured by a camera, that was adjusted by the camera software and photoshop. You may like the adjustments, but it's not real. It's actually hard to define what "real" means; we would be talking spectrum and raw intensities, but brain does a lot of magic with white balance and color perception.
Personally I can say I have never seen anything bluish and contrasting like that from aircraft. The pictures look nice, in some way, but they also feel artificial to me, just like promo photos from sea resorts or similar.

One day we'll add postprocess settings for saturation and contrast and maybe make some presets so everyone can pick one aligned with their bias ;)

Hi Cameni. Totally agree with you. For that i use pics as reference, position, and some aspects (color saturation, etc), but my real references are what my eyes see. I always used that in my job. I didnt even wanted to match the real pic to avoid this blue color bleding.. (while it was posible).
Also depend on the camera settings, if same camera take a pic inside plane probably end up in a dark image.
Our eyes are adaptative. This is the real challenge in Outerra. Make a entire world with not burned whites and not making shadows so dark. 
 
But when you work your engine and try take it to the limits, you see is a piece of art. It looks like athmosphere have a few options, but all those options make almost all posibilities (i just still miss a lot the shadows exposure tool, and a negative bleach tool would be amazing too). And also can handle with so clear horizon and very defined far mountains. I was tired about engines with blurry far mountains... So i focus in that for take out all that outerra potentially have.

I try to take advantage from that, and reproduce a so so clear day where you can see a perfect horizon (while having atmosphere of course, if you put it to zero end up in a ugly fake, my pictures have a 0.30 value).
And personally i love colors.  i had a phase where i desaturate renders (coz is a way to hide the color fails in renders).. But when i go out and see life, i see colors, a car is pure red, blue, etc.. And also the mountains-trees. A good point to meassure is the sky, here the sky is very blue. At least in my place, south of Spain.
Normally in a render i always need to postproduce for saturate and contrast it properly. Thats normal so a postprocess tools inside engine would be always great, needed, and a very valuable plus.

The colors in the terrain are very visible, but i added the red plane to the picture where we can see his color is pure red and all the image is defined. Avoid that undefined effect by atmosphere in the near horizon. We can see atmospherics effects but in the far. This sharpeness and colors make a indescriptible sensation while you are flying.. And outerra handle SO FAR so good with those extra colors and sharpeness.

This is a nice reference for example, for match colors and contrasts in a very clear day. And Outerra can afford that as i am testing.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 08:28:43 am by josem75 »
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cameni

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2016, 11:03:16 am »

But when you work your engine and try take it to the limits, you see is a piece of art. It looks like athmosphere have a few options, but all those options make almost all posibilities (i just still miss a lot the shadows exposure tool, and a negative bleach tool would be amazing too). And also can handle with so clear horizon and very defined far mountains. I was tired about engines with blurry far mountains... So i focus in that for take out all that outerra potentially have.

We re-added the shadow lighting back for the next version. Otherwise all parameters are for physical properties, except for global scattering reduction. That one reduces haze that is realistically supposed to be there, but 1.0 seems to be too much.

Quote
When i go out and see life, i see colors, a car is pure red, blue, etc.. And also the mountains-trees. A good point to meassure is the sky, here the sky is very blue. At least in my place, south of Spain.
Normally in a render i always need to postproduce for saturate and contrast it properly. Thats normal so a postprocess tools inside engine would be always great, needed, and a very valuable plus.

An interesting scientific look at the perception, based on the famous gold-blue dress problem.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/science/the-science-behind-the-dress-color.html?smid=tw-nytimesscience&smtyp=cur

Quote
In one study, Michael Webster, a psychologist from the University of Nevada, Reno, places blame for Dressgate on the ambiguity of the color blue, and people’s inability to reliably discern blue objects from blue lighting. He said that our vision was good at telling if we were looking at a white paper in red light, or a red paper in white light, but that process did not work easily for all colors, and blue tends to be problematic.


When Dr. Webster inverted the colors of the dress, 95 percent of his participants said they saw the colors yellow and black.

Quote
A 2015 scientific study with 1,400 respondents found that 57% saw the dress as blue and black, 30% as white and gold and about 10% as blue and brown, while approximately 10% could switch between any of the colour combinations.

So I'm a white-gold person, but I see the inverted dress as yellow-blue, not yellow-black.
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Jagerbomber

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2016, 02:01:30 pm »

Oh god it's back....

IT WAS BLUE AND BLACK!  ON A TERRIBLE CAMERA!  IN TERRIBLE LIGHTING!  MAYBE EVEN BEHIND GLASS!

 :facepalm:
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2016, 02:02:46 pm »

But when you work your engine and try take it to the limits, you see is a piece of art. It looks like athmosphere have a few options, but all those options make almost all posibilities (i just still miss a lot the shadows exposure tool, and a negative bleach tool would be amazing too). And also can handle with so clear horizon and very defined far mountains. I was tired about engines with blurry far mountains... So i focus in that for take out all that outerra potentially have.

We re-added the shadow lighting back for the next version. Otherwise all parameters are for physical properties, except for global scattering reduction. That one reduces haze that is realistically supposed to be there, but 1.0 seems to be too much.

Quote
When i go out and see life, i see colors, a car is pure red, blue, etc.. And also the mountains-trees. A good point to meassure is the sky, here the sky is very blue. At least in my place, south of Spain.
Normally in a render i always need to postproduce for saturate and contrast it properly. Thats normal so a postprocess tools inside engine would be always great, needed, and a very valuable plus.

An interesting scientific look at the perception, based on the famous gold-blue dress problem.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/science/the-science-behind-the-dress-color.html?smid=tw-nytimesscience&smtyp=cur

Quote
In one study, Michael Webster, a psychologist from the University of Nevada, Reno, places blame for Dressgate on the ambiguity of the color blue, and people’s inability to reliably discern blue objects from blue lighting. He said that our vision was good at telling if we were looking at a white paper in red light, or a red paper in white light, but that process did not work easily for all colors, and blue tends to be problematic.


When Dr. Webster inverted the colors of the dress, 95 percent of his participants said they saw the colors yellow and black.

Quote
A 2015 scientific study with 1,400 respondents found that 57% saw the dress as blue and black, 30% as white and gold and about 10% as blue and brown, while approximately 10% could switch between any of the colour combinations.

So I'm a white-gold person, but I see the inverted dress as yellow-blue, not yellow-black.

Im in your team. White-gold and Yellow-blue ))
Great hear we will see again the shadows option. Even while i personally love dark contrasts.
I made some more images today while i have a bit time..  I will post them
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2016, 02:22:49 pm »

New images. Another step. I think i am almost in the finish. From here i dont even see how i can improve the results.

I choosed here a contrasted and "dark" way similar like in the drone video i posted before.  But easily can put higher lighting without problem.

Again, focus in the same. Get the perfect color and maximize a lot (now even more) the definition (see mountains in far, plane, houses, etc).

Outerra at its amazing limits....


My final result


This is the same picture but less agressive, more balanced and lighted


Intermediate


Default from ooterra


« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 05:18:17 pm by josem75 »
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2016, 02:36:07 pm »

Now some near detail using a building.
Here you can see clearly all more defined.


Final result


Intermediate


« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 02:45:01 pm by josem75 »
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HiFlyer

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2016, 03:25:42 pm »

As Cameni said, maybe there will be the option to define color presets, eventually. It would certainly be a cool feature!
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Acetone

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2016, 03:46:09 pm »

New images. Another step. I think i am almost in the finish. From here i dont even see how i can improve the results.
I choosed here a contrasted and "dark" way similar like in the drone video i posted before.  But easily can put higher lighting without problem.
Again, focus in the same. Get the perfect color and maximize a lot (now even more) the definition (see mountains in far, plane, houses, etc).
Outerra at its amazing limits....

The first picture seems too much over-saturated (for me), the blacks especially don't feel really natural, almost agressive. #2 is a good balance. From my past tests, scattering is the value most people have the most problem with, one of the reasons why they describe OT as "foggy" sometimes. I did some experiments with locations I really know, with actual time of day and sort of accurate weather.
Well, in fact, the only problem here is that the parameter should be dynamic (it's not the case, since OT weather is static), because scattering can change a lot. Strong winds ? -> Less particles, and you can get a view as clear as in your first screen. Hot day in summer, in a very dry area ? You will get something way above the OT default setting. Add to that ambient humidity and you will get a very limited view distance, even a clear day.

I like those color related experiments, makes you realize how nice it is to be able to tweak all those parameters on the fly in OT, everybody can have what he enjoys the most :)
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2016, 05:17:17 pm »

New images. Another step. I think i am almost in the finish. From here i dont even see how i can improve the results.
I choosed here a contrasted and "dark" way similar like in the drone video i posted before.  But easily can put higher lighting without problem.
Again, focus in the same. Get the perfect color and maximize a lot (now even more) the definition (see mountains in far, plane, houses, etc).
Outerra at its amazing limits....

The first picture seems too much over-saturated (for me), the blacks especially don't feel really natural, almost agressive. #2 is a good balance. From my past tests, scattering is the value most people have the most problem with, one of the reasons why they describe OT as "foggy" sometimes. I did some experiments with locations I really know, with actual time of day and sort of accurate weather.
Well, in fact, the only problem here is that the parameter should be dynamic (it's not the case, since OT weather is static), because scattering can change a lot. Strong winds ? -> Less particles, and you can get a view as clear as in your first screen. Hot day in summer, in a very dry area ? You will get something way above the OT default setting. Add to that ambient humidity and you will get a very limited view distance, even a clear day.

I like those color related experiments, makes you realize how nice it is to be able to tweak all those parameters on the fly in OT, everybody can have what he enjoys the most :)

Hey. I think its because i used as i said very agressive configuration about dark and contrast, for match the video drone.
The second is more balanced (now the third, because the second will be the other final version i have with more light and less agressive conf). 
but also this "third" picture lacks on definition a bit, all the colors are more disperse and contrastless. SO blacks are not so dark.  This was precissely what i was wanting to avoid. Generating a pure clear day with big contrast and definition. 
The definition diference you can see between one and the other is the key, then its a matter of increase lighting.

Luckily I have another pic less dark.  So i´ll post it too.
All the tweaks are ongame, but not all are outerra exclusively.  But this means i can fly with those settings and ultra color contrast and definition. What is so amazing sensation..

I will add this picture in the other post so you can see there also for compare.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 05:23:13 pm by josem75 »
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HiFlyer

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2016, 06:56:27 pm »

New images. Another step. I think i am almost in the finish. From here i dont even see how i can improve the results.
I choosed here a contrasted and "dark" way similar like in the drone video i posted before.  But easily can put higher lighting without problem.
Again, focus in the same. Get the perfect color and maximize a lot (now even more) the definition (see mountains in far, plane, houses, etc).
Outerra at its amazing limits....

Well, in fact, the only problem here is that the parameter should be dynamic (it's not the case, since OT weather is static), because scattering can change a lot. Strong winds ? -> Less particles, and you can get a view as clear as in your first screen. Hot day in summer, in a very dry area ? You will get something way above the OT default setting. Add to that ambient humidity and you will get a very limited view distance, even a clear day.

Dynamic might solve a lot of perceived issues......
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cameni

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2016, 12:15:06 pm »

Dynamic might solve a lot of perceived issues......

I'm not sure. Currently it's right for certain time of day and day of year and atmospheric setting, but people complain that it's not right because of their selected real-world experience at a different time, or worse, in a different game/simulator that doesn't even use a real-time physical atmospheric scattering. If it was dynamic, yeah we could say it's currently such air condition.

The atmospheric model is incomplete, but the problem is that it can only get more hazy if we add more variables. If you turn off Mie scattering (one from water vapor), what remains is scattering from air molecules, free of any dust. What the scattering coefficient slider does is thinning out the air, lowering real atmospheric pressure to get a sharper image.

IMHO, it's again mostly about perception and personal preference, not so much about realism. We would all like the real views to be as sharp as photoshopped ones, but when I try to recall any real one I ever saw, it was far from those.
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