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Author Topic: Lighting and Colouring  (Read 28288 times)

josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2016, 04:19:36 pm »

Dynamic might solve a lot of perceived issues......

I'm not sure. Currently it's right for certain time of day and day of year and atmospheric setting, but people complain that it's not right because of their selected real-world experience at a different time, or worse, in a different game/simulator that doesn't even use a real-time physical atmospheric scattering. If it was dynamic, yeah we could say it's currently such air condition.

The atmospheric model is incomplete, but the problem is that it can only get more hazy if we add more variables. If you turn off Mie scattering (one from water vapor), what remains is scattering from air molecules, free of any dust. What the scattering coefficient slider does is thinning out the air, lowering real atmospheric pressure to get a sharper image.

IMHO, it's again mostly about perception and personal preference, not so much about realism. We would all like the real views to be as sharp as photoshopped ones, but when I try to recall any real one I ever saw, it was far from those.

Its well explained Cameni. And this is very useful for complete my explanation also in this point and what i am trying. And where i think the problem can be after time thinking on it.

You are right, in the life things are not that sharp. But the life has more variety and range of colors. Like we see in drone video, all is sharp when we see around near (100-200-500  meters, some Kilometer). And then we begin to see the atmosphere effects slowly. 
For this reason, My point of view here, after a long think in colors, lights haze, etc, is..   I love the haze and atmospherics effects in outerra because you made an amazing math atmosphere. But at the same time, all get a bit more monotonous and less sharpen, even near. I think this is the thing around this.

So, faking atmosphere it was a good idea and maybe even necesary, because we are not flying still over the real world. Our world in outerra still dont have all the colors with the 500 m earth textures. Also in the real life we have a longer range, like high dinamic range of colors. Many objets and diferent colors all over, etc. So the atmospheric eefects in a clear day end up in a "clear" view full of details and colors.
when we increase the haze in Outerra we get a less defined world and more monotonous (parts all light and parts all dark). This together with the little problem in get equilibirum between highlights and shadows, make the world too dark if u want more sharpen and less haze, or more white but less sharpen if u put higher. This is for me the quid of the question around haze, lights, etc.

This was my focus all the time. Sharpeness and colors. And at least for me, after looong trying, this problem ended. Now i enjoy flying in a 0.50, 0.75 or even 1 scattering.
I will post a little video where i show images with the tweaks in sharpen and color, and with high scattering numbers.

In light, with a few tweaks is almost all done and nice in Outerra. The only little problem i find is to get equilibrium between white parts and dark parts. The shadows lighting tool will be very useful again in this  update, and maybe a negative bleach too (i dont know if this filter would be very dificult to implement). But without it, i used something that worked. Getting the rock texture a bit darker in photoshop. Because the top mountains was too much white. I dont know if there is a way to make a texture absorb less high light, so keep less lighting even in this situation (everest for example). That i can do in max, Blender, etc. but maybe the problem is in the texture bluemarble itself.. The top of mountains are more lighted, and this together with a lot of sun, end in a too white mountain.
I tried the same with the snow but i didnt find the texture. I think we cant touch texture snow. Any chance for make this posible in the future? 
It would be a good posibility for equilibrate all. Because main problem in burn whites is snow (and clouds, but here is more natural, maybe anyway make clouds color/light redefined by user would be also great).
This, at least without Global Ilumination.  Maybe in the future you will also implement it i dont know.


Another point will be the afternoon in outerra. There i see all a bit too dark when the sun just dissapear, even increasing scattering. But this is another history, i will talk after about it. 

« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 05:06:17 pm by josem75 »
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2016, 04:40:08 pm »

Also your idea about the 15 m textures is a mindblowing.....   NOTHING is like outerra in the actual status. And with a real earth complete colors..  I cant imagine it..  15 meters is enough for see all the earth variation textures, all the fields, the crops.. Etc..
I know is expensive.. i was seeing the prices from blue marble 15 m and all was like 30.000 $.. Maybe try with one little area would be good idea because buy little part can be inexpensive. So you can experiment and show the results..
Maybe if you talk with this people and ask for some downgrade? Like 50 m in 7.000 $ or so...  50 m would be still a great variety for outerra (10 times more than now). With the posibility of buying complete in the future paying the diference.. Because for me this is the incredible future of outerra...

Another posibility. If you make something for give money and buy this 15 m textures, i will put some money )). Or even "rebuy" with 15 $ again. Just you would need 2.000 actual owners rebuying it again.. I would do for sure! Because this would be in fact another game.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 05:11:25 pm by josem75 »
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HiFlyer

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2016, 09:40:54 pm »

Also your idea about the 15 m textures is a mindblowing.....   NOTHING is like outerra in the actual status. And with a real earth complete colors..  I cant imagine it..  15 meters is enough for see all the earth variation textures, all the fields, the crops.. Etc..
I know is expensive.. i was seeing the prices from blue marble 15 m and all was like 30.000 $.. Maybe try with one little area would be good idea because buy little part can be inexpensive. So you can experiment and show the results..
Maybe if you talk with this people and ask for some downgrade? Like 50 m in 7.000 $ or so...  50 m would be still a great variety for outerra (10 times more than now). With the posibility of buying complete in the future paying the diference.. Because for me this is the incredible future of outerra...

Another posibility. If you make something for give money and buy this 15 m textures, i will put some money )). Or even "rebuy" with 15 $ again. Just you would need 2.000 actual owners rebuying it again.. I would do for sure! Because this would be in fact another game.

$30,000? That's whut kickstarters are for! (Though maybe what Outerra really needs is a rich sugar-daddy)  =D
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cameni

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #63 on: February 29, 2016, 09:04:35 am »

Cheaper global imagery sources are unusable, being reconstructed from IR bands. Those colors are way off and you can see seams from how the tiles were glued together everywhere. But even the more expensive ones have various faults in the samples they publish as demo data, supposedly the best ones selected ...

It took me some time but I got a 4.4TB of satellite data with surface reflectance values (i.e corrected atmo effects) in 30m resolution. This should be a good basis to create a dataset usable for OT, but of course that's still a long way ahead.
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ZeosPantera

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2016, 02:26:47 am »

Finally a topic I can sit an look at..
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2016, 07:44:47 pm »

Finally a topic I can sit an look at..

Thanks!  You will have new things to see today. I will post some images from all my testings (some are already in screenshot thread).
And also my (almost) final explanations and conclussions.
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2016, 04:51:54 am »

Its some week since i told for put conclusions, but lack of time and i made lotsss more testings. I always try to improve things so i will not say this is final results (but they are at the moment and i am amazed with them).
What i can say is.. Its the first time in ALL my whole life, having the feelling with a game/engine that im flying in a real world.. 

I love this image.. So this will be the first example of i am talking about.
(Note: i changed color saturation not in huge way, just for get my real colors configuration and the blue electric sky i was looking for. Also i didnt quit any of the haze, are images for any place, not only in very clear days. Even are a bit more hazy (but more detailed). So those things will not bother for explain the improves).


« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 05:12:22 am by josem75 »
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nothinglikethesun

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2016, 05:31:33 am »

Hi Josem. Avesome pic! Can you post your settings ?
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2016, 07:23:37 am »

Few more examples. (After i will be puting before and after focusing in the diferent improves).
All are with the same settings for all the diferent conditions. Which was a huge dare..

This way (and the example pic before) remind me Vue.. But Vue is a SLOW render and now Outerra can even look at least similar in real time..  Cameni, your dream to reach Terragen is going higher...


Its like you want be there fighting with the x-wing.




As i said Haze was there and even bigger (0.75 and up in scattering)








Aerial




This is pure Outerra.. And sun is burning the machines

« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 08:12:57 am by josem75 »
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2eyed

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2016, 10:10:09 am »

Hi Josem. Avesome pic! Can you post your settings ?
His settings seem to be his secret :)
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HiFlyer

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2016, 10:40:45 am »

Hi Josem. Avesome pic! Can you post your settings ?
His settings seem to be his secret :)

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nothinglikethesun

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2016, 10:44:44 am »

Few more examples. (After i will be puting before and after focusing in the diferent improves).
All are with the same settings for all the diferent conditions. Which was a huge dare..

This way (and the example pic before) remind me Vue.. But Vue is a SLOW render and now Outerra can even look at least similar in real time..  Cameni, your dream to reach Terragen is going higher...


Its like you want be there fighting with the x-wing.




As i said Haze was there and even bigger (0.75 and up in scattering)








Aerial




This is pure Outerra.. And sun is burning the machines


Secret? I hope not! :-)
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2eyed

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2016, 04:06:53 pm »

I do understand the intensions of josem75 quite well. Man, did I do a lot of slider draging in OT over the last couple of years! Don't forget the waters josem, this is a different beast to get right. In combination with skies almost undoable with current state of the engine.

Here is a toned down version of your vision (at least less bloom).
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HiFlyer

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2016, 05:22:54 pm »

I do understand the intensions of josem75 quite well. Man, did I do a lot of slider draging in OT over the last couple of years! Don't forget the waters josem, this is a different beast to get right. In combination with skies almost undoable with current state of the engine.

Here is a toned down version of your vision (at least less bloom).

That is an extremely low res pic. Can't really see much!
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josem75

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Re: Lighting and Colouring
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2016, 06:09:24 pm »




Hahaha. Not at all.

I do understand the intensions of josem75 quite well. Man, did I do a lot of slider draging in OT over the last couple of years! Don't forget the waters josem, this is a different beast to get right. In combination with skies almost undoable with current state of the engine.

Here is a toned down version of your vision (at least less bloom).

We are profesional Sliders in Outerra xD.
Many people are doing nice tasks in here. I though in this light and color task i was able to spend some nice time and give some nice conclusions too. As long as i needed to "fight" with colors since long time in my 3d proyects.   

At the begining i was showing less hazy images, focusing in clear days. Now i am respecting the original Outerra light (which is very very good for not being Global Ilumination). I like the Haze, i just tried to give enough detail for have a nice hazy effect, where you see very detail near and less detail far. (i will explain with images after).

I cant see your numbers, but for the slider positions, those settings are in fact very very similar to the settings i use as Outerra base Settings.
Hight terrain reflexion (Looks better, and also for avoid very dark shadows until we have the option again).  Clear sky with low red, middle green and high blue. And average scattering. I use a bit higher, 0.75 and more (plus extra bloom), because after when i add more detail still looks great, its a plus.  But i can also easily move for less hazy/more clear day/imge.

My Base Outerra Settings, taking in account after i add extra-things.. If pure Outerra then can be some changes, for example go expusure 2 instead 1.50. Or maybe slow down scattering a bit, etc.
 

« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 06:16:26 pm by josem75 »
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