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Author Topic: OT as Multiplayer WW2 Combat Flight Simulator  (Read 5309 times)

bada

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OT as Multiplayer WW2 Combat Flight Simulator
« on: September 17, 2016, 06:21:33 pm »

hello,
couldn' decide if making the topic here or in the technology part of the forum  :facepalm:

Following outerra in the shadows for several years, i enjoy every little advancement in every possible field of the soft.
Anyway, i dream for outerra to become the future WWII Combat Flight simulator as it's the only one engine (Combat Flight spoken )capable
of simulating the long range flights or even the medium ranged-ones, thing that actual combat sims doesn't allow (the il2-46 or the new il-BoS)
even if the old il2-46 accept maps upto 900km lenght, but question ground details...yaeh it's not up to actual standards now, beeing coded
 at the end of the 90', but still stays a reference for the multiplayer combat sims genre (coding spoken).

Now, what should it take for outerra to become the futur CFS-il2?
the following assumptions/questions/ideas are mostly things i'm questionning myself soo please do not point the rheinmetal 20mm directly :-)
Maybe some answers are in some posts on the forum, but can't read all the post neither...sorry.

1°aero physics:
-OT works with JSBsim, what actually seems to be a very capable flight engine but doesn't it require too much CPU?
-isn't the jSBsim too hard to code to get a plane bahave like it should?
-How will OT react when having something like 128 players and 500 Ai's on the same area (simple exemple:B-17 raid interception above
 germany),hundreds 0.50 cal shooting from the bombers, 128 human pilots flying between bombers...a real furball.
 Is there a way to supress (bypass) the JSBsim and use an easier FlightModel physics (like the one in il2 for those who knows)or is it not needed and JSBsim
 can be handled by one player's cpu acting like host for other players?

2°Ballistics physics:
-Does the actual ballistic stuff in OT  can handle any kind of projectile?

3°Netcode
- i saw the first tries for the network coding (third party), looks promising (maybe the 100ms are much too low).What are the developer's expectations for
  the "multiplayer" capability?

4°3d stuff:
- Does OT need different LoD's or does it compute it by itself? (i saw different Lod's in the object importer but not used it till now...)
- How should an airplane 3model be made to get a Dammage Model? is this made simply the old way?: bullet-X hits
   Dammagebox-Y with kinetic energy-Z =>gives dammage on function-W and disable Function-V(for example).(Java type coding used in il2)

5°Dammaging the "objects": OT use BULLEt, but how if we want to to destroy a building, working with Different states for the building(Alive and dead)?
   or is there something special to add when creating the 3d model of the building if we want it be crushed by a bomb?

5°The world:
-OT uses actual elevation data what gives a certain terrain. but in 70 years, things have changed question height and terrain shape. will there be a way to modify the Actual
 "ground-terrain"using old WW2 maps, like putting an overlay to a certain zone of the terrain that the guy correcting can follow to modify the ground?

-OT (will) use actual OSM data, would there be the need to create the whole WW2 OSM data from scratch? or is there another way to create the roads maps?

-WW2 roads weren't like the one we have today, OT seems to use Seamless texturing for the roads. how could the cobblestone roads, the
 concrete-plate roads, the concrete-plate tarmacs beeing done?

-Trees: right now, trees have no DM, is there something in the planning to get the trees having an affect on object flying through them?


Others questions will come...

Thank you


And sorry for my english...
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cameni

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Re: OT as Multiplayer WW2 Combat Flight Simulator
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2016, 03:04:47 pm »

1°aero physics:
-OT works with JSBsim, what actually seems to be a very capable flight engine but doesn't it require too much CPU?

Yes, seems you could only run around 10 instances on an average CPU.

Quote
-isn't the jSBsim too hard to code to get a plane bahave like it should?

Can't comment much on that, but it certainly is not meant for quick & dirty jobs.

Quote
-How will OT react when having something like 128 players and 500 Ai's on the same area (simple exemple:B-17 raid interception above
 germany),hundreds 0.50 cal shooting from the bombers, 128 human pilots flying between bombers...a real furball.
 Is there a way to supress (bypass) the JSBsim and use an easier FlightModel physics (like the one in il2 for those who knows)or is it not needed and JSBsim
 can be handled by one player's cpu acting like host for other players?

Depends on the multiplayer architecture. For example, you could have clients running a detailed JSBSim simulation but only of the aircraft they control, with others being replicated from servers using a much simpler model, whose purpose would be mainly to detect cheating.
It would be probably simpler to write a sim engine anew than to try optimizing JSBSim, as it's also a problem of architecture etc.

Quote
2°Ballistics physics:
-Does the actual ballistic stuff in OT  can handle any kind of projectile?

There's a simplistic model for now, that will be enhanced to have more physical properties.

Quote
3°Netcode
- i saw the first tries for the network coding (third party), looks promising (maybe the 100ms are much too low).What are the developer's expectations for
  the "multiplayer" capability?

We are working actively on the networking and on reworking the other necessary parts of the engine to work with the multiplayer module. Langdon's mod for the networking is awesome piece of hackery, given how limited the interfaces for it currently exist in OT. For proper networking that will be scalable into the future we need to do a lot of changes in several parts of the engine, not just the networking interfaces exposing everything necessary but also changes to how vehicles are scripted, to support custom models etc.
However, it's still too early to tell any specific details.

Quote
4°3d stuff:
- Does OT need different LoD's or does it compute it by itself? (i saw different Lod's in the object importer but not used it till now...)

LODs need to be present in models.

Quote
- How should an airplane 3model be made to get a Dammage Model? is this made simply the old way?: bullet-X hits
   Dammagebox-Y with kinetic energy-Z =>gives dammage on function-W and disable Function-V(for example).(Java type coding used in il2)

5°Dammaging the "objects": OT use BULLEt, but how if we want to to destroy a building, working with Different states for the building(Alive and dead)?
   or is there something special to add when creating the 3d model of the building if we want it be crushed by a bomb?

For now damage needs to be handled that way, but even this mechanism isn't properly handled. Basically, there's a list of "landed" projectiles and game code is supposed to go though it at the end of each frame and compute damage to objects that were hit, or spawn secondary effects (explosions, craters ...). Some of the handling should be done by vehicle scripts (compute damage on itself), some done universally by replacing static models. It well become more clear once we do some real-game implementations and tests and will see what way is best.

Quote
5°The world:
-OT uses actual elevation data what gives a certain terrain. but in 70 years, things have changed question height and terrain shape. will there be a way to modify the Actual
 "ground-terrain"using old WW2 maps, like putting an overlay to a certain zone of the terrain that the guy correcting can follow to modify the ground?

Probably best to modify the source elevation data and compile Earth-1938 dataset.

Quote
-OT (will) use actual OSM data, would there be the need to create the whole WW2 OSM data from scratch? or is there another way to create the roads maps?

OSM data are processed and imported through import plugin; if there's a suitable source of vector data, you can import it as well. It's not an easy process to get right, so maybe it's indeed better to have an OSM layer with WW2 roads.

Quote
-WW2 roads weren't like the one we have today, OT seems to use Seamless texturing for the roads. how could the cobblestone roads, the
 concrete-plate roads, the concrete-plate tarmacs beeing done?

That's just a question of adding support for these types. There are cobblestone roads already in OT.

Quote
-Trees: right now, trees have no DM, is there something in the planning to get the trees having an affect on object flying through them?

We recently implemented functionality of trees bending and snapping and affecting vehicles, allowing heavier ones to overcome them or elastically brake them.
For aircraft it's more problematic because of JSBSim and problems with collision shapes and propagation of forces from physics back to JSBSim, but this will be eventually solved.
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bada

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Re: OT as Multiplayer WW2 Combat Flight Simulator
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2016, 05:26:14 pm »

Hello cameni,
thank you for your time for giving me answer, i appreciate.

But if i may abuse a littlebit :-[..


Depends on the multiplayer architecture. For example, you could have clients running a detailed JSBSim simulation but only of the aircraft they control, with others being replicated from servers using a much simpler model, whose purpose would be mainly to detect cheating.
It would be probably simpler to write a sim engine anew than to try optimizing JSBSim, as it's also a problem of architecture etc.

What you wrote here, what do you mean by that? you mean it would be easier to start from scratch to build a whole new engine than readapt OT for another flightmodel physics?


Quote
Probably best to modify the source elevation data and compile Earth-1938 dataset.

Ok, that's maybe doable, i've worked like some almost 10 years ago with 3Dem for Map-creation for il2-sturmovik, but don't remeber having a modifier tool, 3DEM was used to extract and glue together different SRTM files and then translate it into a color scale.
what are the actual Softs able to do modify the data you use for OT?

Quote
OSM data are processed and imported through import plugin; if there's a suitable source of vector data, you can import it as well. It's not an easy process to get right, so maybe it's indeed better to have an OSM layer with WW2 roads.

OK, that's what i afraid of ??? Tried QGIS some weeks ago, just to try to get the grip on the soft, loaded some old Brussel's map, loaded the OSM data for the same region....what could i say except QGIS is like a Steam-machine (like we like to say in french for something complicated :D ) with several layers, modes and other stuff for maps. So the 2 cents question: have you maybe an exemple of an OSM  file you used to import in OT that we could take as exemple , having  the idea that way what OT has really need for the Road Mapping without having to learn QGIS from inside out. thanks

Quote
There are cobblestone roads already in OT.

what?? i missed that? how blind i am...  :facepalm:

« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 02:51:35 am by cameni »
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cameni

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Re: OT as Multiplayer WW2 Combat Flight Simulator
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2016, 03:27:32 am »

Depends on the multiplayer architecture. For example, you could have clients running a detailed JSBSim simulation but only of the aircraft they control, with others being replicated from servers using a much simpler model, whose purpose would be mainly to detect cheating.
It would be probably simpler to write a sim engine anew than to try optimizing JSBSim, as it's also a problem of architecture etc.

What you wrote here, what do you mean by that? you mean it would be easier to start from scratch to build a whole new engine than readapt OT for another flightmodel physics?

A new simulation engine to replace JSBSim. There are several problems with JSBSim - it's a separate physics engine that doesn't integrate well with the rest of the physics. It was originally meant as a single-process simulator, got some memory leaks too. It routinely calls abort() on failures, shutting down the whole process. It's heavy on resources and not optimized, with a bunch of memory allocations happening during normal operation and so on.

OT can use different simulation engines, but for the coexistence of multiple ones within the single world there are some requirements on how they need to be plugged into a common system.


Quote
i've worked like some almost 10 years ago with 3Dem for Map-creation for il2-sturmovik, but don't remeber having a modifier tool, 3DEM was used to extract and glue together different SRTM files and then translate it into a color scale.
what are the actual Softs able to do modify the data you use for OT?

Various GIS tools that can edit DEM data or even things like the old Wilbur software.

Quote
So the 2 cents question: have you maybe an exemple of an OSM  file you used to import in OT that we could take as exemple , having  the idea that way what OT has really need for the Road Mapping without having to learn QGIS from inside out. thanks

We just download OSM data as they are, then process them. Maybe it's possible to clone OSM maps into a new dataset and go backwards, removing new roads and updating all to match the desired epoch. But you'd do that on the OSM site (if they support it), and once ready we'd import it just like the normal contemporary data.
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aWac9

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Re: OT as Multiplayer WW2 Combat Flight Simulator
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2016, 01:08:27 pm »

A very interesting thread, I did not know of these problems
This problem is a route delays ??
fingers crossed
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bada

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Re: OT as Multiplayer WW2 Combat Flight Simulator
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 04:35:53 pm »

Thank you cameni.

you wrote (sorry, got some pb with the quote system :o )
A new simulation engine to replace JSBSim. There are several problems with JSBSim - it's a separate physics engine that doesn't integrate well with the rest of the physics. It was originally meant as a single-process simulator, got some memory leaks too. It routinely calls abort() on failures, shutting down the whole process. It's heavy on resources and not optimized, with a bunch of memory allocations happening during normal operation and so on.
OT can use different simulation engines, but for the coexistence of multiple ones within the single world there are some requirements on how they need to be plugged into a common system.


So if i understand well, you took jsbsim because it's a complete engine, free and time saving,compared to the time you need if you had to write a fully new one. actually it's a good logical move :D

Will send you a PM about that, if you have time take a look.

Also thank you for the GiS tools hint.
When you say you take raw OSM data, what parts of it are not taken into account by OT?
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bomber

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Re: OT as Multiplayer WW2 Combat Flight Simulator
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2016, 05:52:23 pm »

I guess you're looking to play off line with talk of jsbsim being heavy on cpu.

A jsbsim combat flight model has to be designed from the bottom up to ensure damage is integrated.  You could use a simple flight model but then what would set you apart from the field  ?

 I've worked for 4 years on a new jsbsim combat flight model for online play.... if you can run your own flight model and 4 wingmen I'll be happy as it won't take much to build a reasonable sized formation.

Check target4today.com to see our work.
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"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchell

cameni

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Re: OT as Multiplayer WW2 Combat Flight Simulator
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2016, 03:43:05 am »

We actually have a special multiplayer model in mind for those who want to use both JSBSim (or any heavier sim engine) and a larger number of players, in exchange for a bit more complex and somewhat less reliable anti-hacking guards. An external sim engine would be able to run on clients in case players decide they trust each other, and server will only track if the motion and behavior is within some more relaxed bounds.

When you say you take raw OSM data, what parts of it are not taken into account by OT?

Right now we are only using roads, rivers and building footprints + height if available. The process of correcting errors and filling in missing details can be quite complex though.
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Richard

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Re: OT as Multiplayer WW2 Combat Flight Simulator
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2016, 05:46:12 pm »

There are several problems with JSBSim - it's a separate physics engine that doesn't integrate well with the rest of the physics. It was originally meant as a single-process simulator, got some memory leaks too. It routinely calls abort() on failures, shutting down the whole process. It's heavy on resources and not optimized, with a bunch of memory allocations happening during normal operation and so on.

Would be interested to know when these problems occur and how they manifest. There is some merit in keeping each simulated module in a separate process - although with Win32 the process startup is slower than a fork(), but not massively so. If it were up to me I'd be fixing the problems in JSBSim and submitting patches.

Fixing JSBSim and performing optimisations is probably going to be less work than replacing it. In the air you can drop the iteration rate to 30hz and it's fine, but the ground handling starts to show problems. There are model side optimizations that can be added, such as the new lower rate systems that I added recently.
 

JSBSim is fundamentally sound as a sim engine; it's great for flying vehicles, but not so much for land based.
 
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bomber

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Re: OT as Multiplayer WW2 Combat Flight Simulator
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2016, 06:30:56 pm »

I have it at 20Hz on land without a problem... that I know of.
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"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchell