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Author Topic: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?  (Read 34787 times)

ZeosPantera

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What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« on: March 16, 2012, 03:12:59 pm »

I haven't owned a flight sim since FS98 so I haven't really been in the loop as to what makes up a desirable Flight Sim. I am curious to find out specifically what the FS community is actually looking for in their "perfect" flight sim. Is it 100% complete control arrays, Accurate airport surroundings, the view out the window from 20,000 feet? Does air combat factor into the whole flight sim family or is it a bastard offspring?
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Jagerbomber

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2012, 03:53:34 pm »

I'd say planes are a good start.
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Andrey

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2012, 04:21:13 pm »

Good topic here!

Not to dive deep into dreams:
- lakes and rivers
- clouds
- airports
- expanded materials (bumps, reflection)
- opening for 3rd part developers
This will be good start for serious competition with FSX and X-plane.

Then we'll need:
- Navigation net (ILS VOR)
- Weather
- Trees and vegetation
- Traffic and controllers
- Cities (small and large)
- Roads, electric mains and railways (FSX have no btw)
- Some aircraft in default version (However side developers could solve this)
- Realistic lights
...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 04:26:56 pm by Andrey »
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NIN3

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2012, 07:32:46 pm »

Id like to add that multyplayer could be a usefull additon. havent you ever wanted to fly in formation?
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PRiME

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2012, 08:00:14 pm »

Adding some MP peer to peer system would be a nice addition and allow people to test the world sim together in a more productive manner. Perhaps adding in a 1st Person sim so players can jump into planes but also land at locations to look around on foot if needed.
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mctash

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2012, 08:06:04 pm »

I guess one feature would be the ability to refine the height map and coast lines. Also terrain morphing tools to flatten areas etc.
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NIN3

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2012, 11:21:37 pm »

I guess one feature would be the ability to refine the height map and coast lines. Also terrain morphing tools to flatten areas etc.
Spore earth modification tools ftw!
(overpowered aliens with powerfull terraforming tools)
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DeltaSim

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2012, 05:06:51 am »

1) Some form of realistic wind simulation would be great:

http://www.outerra.com/forum/index.php?topic=100.msg759#msg759

Considering the numerical power of today's gaming PCs, it might be the right time to introduce some real physics into the wind models of flight sims. Knowing that this limits the wind simulation to NVidia users: Would CUDA be an idea for this? There is quite a number of fluid simulation codes in CUDA at http://developer.nvidia.com/category/zone/cuda-zone .

2) Scenario content based on geographical information:

http://www.outerra.com/forum/index.php?topic=849.msg9802#msg9802

Cheers, Martin
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Andrey

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2012, 05:16:13 am »

One more - touchable virtual cockpit.
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C. Shawn Smith

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2012, 05:27:39 am »

1) Some form of realistic wind simulation would be great:

http://www.outerra.com/forum/index.php?topic=100.msg759#msg759

Considering the numerical power of today's gaming PCs, it might be the right time to introduce some real physics into the wind models of flight sims. Knowing that this limits the wind simulation to NVidia users: Would CUDA be an idea for this? There is quite a number of fluid simulation codes in CUDA at http://developer.nvidia.com/category/zone/cuda-zone .

2) Scenario content based on geographical information:

http://www.outerra.com/forum/index.php?topic=849.msg9802#msg9802

Cheers, Martin

Cuda is buggy, and not portable to other cards in the least.  By doing so, you'd gear the engine to a specific graphics card :(

I've done some research into Cuda, due to an issue I had months ago, and had to finally disable it because of those specific issues which nVidia refuses to address.  From what I understood at the time (while it was a nice idea), it didn't work as intended, and may be phased out eventually, especially as GPU speeds increase over the course of the next few years.

My video editing app utilizes Cuda, but crashes almost every time it's enabled, due to the inherent bugs.  nVidia has a long way to go to get it working right, but even then, you're leaving ATI guys in the dust if you develop an app that takes advantage of it.
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DeltaSim

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2012, 08:24:15 am »

You're right, of course, about tieing the simulation to NVidia cards. I wasn't aware that CUDA is so buggy - just looked like a cool thing to me.

That said - is something like CUDA actually needed? I guess someone who can program graphics could do without, or not? There will however be the issue of loading the graphics card with more stuff, though.
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[deleted]

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2012, 11:20:23 am »

Good topic here!

Not to dive deep into dreams:
- lakes and rivers
- clouds
- airports
- expanded materials (bumps, reflection)
- opening for 3rd part developers
This will be good start for serious competition with FSX and X-plane.

Then we'll need:
- Navigation net (ILS VOR)
- Weather
- Trees and vegetation
- Traffic and controllers
- Cities (small and large)
- Roads, electric mains and railways (FSX have no btw)
- Some aircraft in default version (However side developers could solve this)
- Realistic lights
...

Cockpit with clickable buttons.
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Luishi5k0

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2012, 12:55:20 pm »

OpenCL is like CUDA but on all cards I believe. I think it would be better to use all cores of a CPU for that. I have 8 threads, but the only game to use 6 was GTA IV.
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KelvinNZ

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2012, 03:27:58 am »

Zeos,

I think you may have opened a can of worms on this one  ;D

Ok, I have been flying with flight simulator for many years as well as having achieved about 80% of my private pilot license. I have found flight simulation paramount to my success so far in my real training.

The following factors are crucial to flying whether it be real or simulated with no differences (if you have the money for the gear) other than the potential loss of life if things go wrong. All systems can be replicated it's just the time involved figuring out how to do it. So, the following are my ideas about what a flight simulator should encompass to make it an immersive experience.

I will briefly outline each Module to give you an idea of the significant areas that impact flight, that, if simulated with multiple sub-systems, would make for a truly great experience.

i will leave out any areas that are non simulated factors i.e Human Factors, how to speak on the radio etc...

**Real World Modules**

>>Weather<<
- Atmospheric Pressure
- Temperature and Heat Exchange Processes
- Atmospheric Moisture
- Wind
- Stability of Air
- Local Winds
- Inversions
- Cloud and its Classification
- Precipitation
- Visibility
- Fog
- Fronts and Depressions
- Thunderstorms
- Icing
- Turbulence
- Climatology - Topography, Regional Weather Patterns, Oceanic Surroundings
- Weather Information Services
  + Weather Forecasts
  + Weather Stations
- Metar and Terminal Area Forecasts for use with Flight Planning


>>Technical<< (Mechanics of flight; this is a juicy topic involving multiple sub-systems if simulated)
- Airframe
- Engine
- Carburetor or Jet Propulsion System
- Fuel System
- Engine Handling (different types of engines)
- Electrical Systems
- Pressure Instruments
- Gyroscopic Instruments
- Magnetic instruments (affected by Magnetic Variation)
- Flight Controls
- Aerodynamics
- Performance
- Weight and Balance

>>Navigation and Flight Planning<<
- Navigation Instruments
- Navigational Aids
- Airport and Runway data -- Longitude, Latitude, Elevation, Runway length and width, Parking and Gates.

>>Aviation Law<<
- I'm really only going to speak of one thing here: Airspace; Controlled, Uncontrolled, Military which have simulation relevance in that areas that are reserved for specific flying purposes. These are mapped out by the Aviation Authorities.

One item rarely discussed but such an important plugin would be AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL

Ok sorry for such a long list but these are the primary factors that need consideration for flight, the next thing is what should be in a future sim if given the chance to build one? All of the above, as much as possible to recreate an aviation dream.

I have all my training documentation and relevant books that go through all this in depth so can provide more info if this got of the ground (excuse the pun).

Let's not forget compatibility with hardware devices and allowing multiple key selections (as you would have seen in a previous post of mine on the forum - almost hijacked that thread too  :-[)

Things that I think will be pleasing to the eye are as follows:
>>Simulation Aesthetics<<
Rendering
Simulation Effects
Time flow (for a lack of any better words)
Topology elements (especially for VFR flying)
Multiple texture types i.e Asphalt/concrete/bitumen runways and taxiways, Foliage, Urban/Rural/Metropolitan areas etc...
Airport activity with all the chaos that comes with airports


You know i'm sure all of this data can be obtained from a previous flight simulator and then updated to meet today's data. Maybe using navigraph data - this would save so much time given that the first step would be to gather data before it can be validated then applied.

I'm sure something else will pop into my head but many limitations have hampered developers in previous simulators such as unique weather phenomenons (i.e simulating Coriolis effect, Hemispherical pressure systems; cyclones/anticyclones, Sharp unrealistic wind shifts causing aircraft jerking and s-turns with auto pilots, wind sloping runways, limited atmospheric layers for weather reproduction, simple point of contact for aircraft to ground (I suppose you call it colliders or something to that effect), sub systems for aircraft (namely those I have mentioned in technical above), flat textures, terrain and other visual distortions like repetitive textures etc.. I could go on.

Sounds like algorithms and mathematics are vital to this product and so you would be in your element with a flight simulator given the mathematics required to work all this stuff out... angle of attack, performance calculations on airframe, pressure gradients and lapse rates.. all working simultaneously with multiple other systems - i'm sweating just thinking about it.

Thanks for reading. :-)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 03:38:11 am by Kelvinr »
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ZeosPantera

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Re: What do flight simmers want in their perfect sim?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2012, 03:50:26 am »

One more - touchable virtual cockpit.

ONLY, if you use a kinect and reach out to touch them. Which is feasible...
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