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[cameni]

Nowadays the projection can be done in the GPU shader, acting over one virtual screen surface. It's possible to do many projection types, as long as the geometry tesselation is sufficiently high.

[foxfiles]

Ok, so you mean that one can already generate multi views as long as the GPU is able to do so?
I look forward to testing your engine as soon as I will be back at my office (I'm travelling right now)
( I must admit that I still had no time to really get into your tech demo). I will be back in touch by 2 weeks...

[cameni]

I mean that we will be able to render the view using almost any projection, because in OT the scene is tesselated fairly well and we can do the projection step in the vertex shader, which decides where on the screen the triangles end up. Otherwise you would have to approximate the curved projections using multiple flat views joined together, which brings its own precision and performance problems.

[WP]

Why do they think the engine isn't suitable for flight sims?

I think it is because it isn't planning on becoming a dedicated flight sim or the fact that it is being developed by by a small group and likely won't get the corporate approval for using real names on planes and such..

Seriously?  You'd think that the hardcore crowd would value the ability to fly anywhere in a completely simulated Earth more than a few logo textures...

[foxfiles]

I mean that we will be able to render the view using almost any projection, ......... Otherwise you would have to approximate the curved projections using multiple flat views joined together, which brings its own precision and performance problems.

Yes I agree, today, to have cylindrical or spherical projections from entry level or semi pro simulators equals approximations...
so Wahooo, if you can render direct, using almost any projection surface, this is becoming very powerful !!!

Maybe only the super high end "simulators" are able to make geometrics corrections in their image generation?

[cameni]

I don't know, but I guess that previously it had to be done with special hardware, and that must have been pretty costly (and thus high end).

[Fabo.sk]

I dont think most of the bigger airplane companies would be against using their names and such in an entertainment level simulation engine. At least they are not going after numerous payware and freeware authors in various FSims now (well apart from Gulfstream but that is a different story)

http://aerowinx.com/html/simulator.html Perhaps you can talk to these guys - the simulator they are writing is more or less an airplane simulator, if you let them integrate reasonably, and use Outtera as a visualization platform, there might be some market there.

[Sanya2012]

I haven't owned a flight sim since FS98 so I haven't really been in the loop as to what makes up a desirable Flight Sim. I am curious to find out specifically what the FS community is actually looking for in their "perfect" flight sim. Is it 100% complete control arrays, Accurate airport surroundings, the view out the window from 20,000 feet? Does air combat factor into the whole flight sim family or is it a bastard offspring?

Hello!
I have long been using flight simulators. And for me it would be very good, if the simulator will be able to transfer all the user settings of FS9 or FSX. I would be interested in: move traffic to maintain their traditional setting keys to control in flight. I know that a lot of people around the world love the traffic and would be willing to move in this simulator the usual setup, scenerys, and traffic. It would be convenient if this simulator contain the opportunity to make it simple to move all the familiar and the best of the FS9 or FSX.

[KelvinNZ]

I don't think this would be very easy given the different type of techniques used and Outerra compared with FSX and the like. Outerra uses smart techniques that are just not available in FSX, FS9, or any other flight sim. Remember as Cameni has explained before this is an engine that, in essence, will be a base for simulators to sit on top of so we will all have to see where it leads. But, it is looking like a very promising and capable engine to be used for a flight simulator as it renders the entire planet and will used methods to call on various environmental elements that are all relevant for flight simulation. All I can say is that if I had the funds to fund this project with the knowledge that it would become a flight simulator I would indeed invest.

[Fabo.sk]

Sooner or later, there will be a point when MSFS users will have to break out of their laziness and accept a different platform. It is a fair point that a good UI is needed. This is the biggest problem X-Plane has - it has very little user interface at all...

Being able to migrate settings, and especially traffic etc. from FS - sorry, that is bull.

[ZeosPantera]

Well depending on how Cameni codes the controls you should be able to load a custom HTML UI to suit any needs or wants. HTML is easy enough almost anyone can do it as long as the parameters exist.

[FMCS]

Hello everyone,

     I'd just like to thank you guys at Outerra for reaching out to us in the FlightSim community and asking for our opinions and ideas... I have been watching this project with great anticipation for at least two years and truly believe that Outerra can become the next true Sim for all of us hardcore simmers...

     I've had a FlightSim since it's inception back in the 80's... I have owned a and purchased products for them since FS95. I currently still run the old FS2004 simply because there is nothing out there that I believe is worth upgrading too! FSX is so buggy and the fact that it's not backwards compatible simply keeps me and thousands of others from moving over. The cost of updating all the sceneries and aircraft, is absolutely a big part of that.. coupled with the poor performance of FSX just keeps it from being a viable option. There are those that use FSX, and love it but moving on to something new is equally problematic because again, you have to start from scratch..or to something better!!!

     I've read in this thread a few remarks concerning the Flight Simulator specific possibilities of Outerra and some who say just add some runways and a few towers and we're good to go! Well I don't agree, and if you decide to move in the Flight Simulator direction it would be foolish to follow such advice! You would be stepping back some 15 years, and would be unfortunately, on the same page as MS and their crappy "Flight" game. A true flight simulation..."simulator" has to encompass the entire globe with cities and airports from the largest urban centres to remote airports in the Canadian high arctic... 

     X-plane 10 was unfortunately very disappointing. They built a very nice looking Sim with all the moving traffic but left out so many important features that made them completely obsolete even before the game was ever released! And even when some commented on their forums (including myself) we were brushed off.. if not by the actual team then by other supporters that can't bare to hear a different opinion... As a result I don't believe that they actually expanded their clientele and most probably simply maintained their original supporters....a real shame!   

     I am part of various FS AI groups (some with 7 thousand members) that produce and release freeware AI models for FS2004 and FSX series.  All are multiple LOD models that are extremely detailed and realistic.  In a true Flight Simulator you can depart New York JFK with the entire city and airport and land in London Heathrow just like in real life... Having detailed cities and airports, filled with air traffic and vehicles both on the airport and on the roads is what makes the experience special and what makes a Sim great!  The added bonus would be that by adding all these details you would benefit all other Sims like Rail, Ship and road sims that can take advantage of the scenery...all in one Outerra world! 

    I'm including some ideas and opinions as to what I think are must haves in a Simulator for the 21st century...

--------------
Weather
--------------
-Realistic seasons
-Realistic clouds, winds and weather.. Check out REX (http://realenvironmentxtreme.com/overdrive.html) and  Active Sky (http://www.hifitechinc.com/) for the weather engine
-Realistic rain and snow..it would be nice to have accumulation and it's effects! 
-Stormy waters, lakes and Oceans


--------------
Scenery
--------------
-The ability to import other format sceneries from MS flightsim, especially airports!  This is already done with X-plane 10...
-Cities and towns in detail... http://www.aerosoft.de/_php_projekte/_php_screenshots/screenshots.php?sp=fsx&p=manhattanx
-roads with vehicle traffic
-realistic streets and highways with realistic lighting and city lights.. i.e . http://www.scenerysolutions.com/ut_fsx_usa.html
-Train tracks and AI trains
-AI Ships and boats
-Birds and animals...already used in FSX and X-plane


--------------
Airports
--------------
-The ability to import existing airports from MSFS would be great ..as mentioned above as in X-Plane!!
-The ability to edit airport Afcads that include aircraft parking, taxiing and vehicle movements
-Dynamic vehicles in airports and a way to edit them and their movements.
-Sloping runways and taxiways
-realistic default approns, taxiways and runways with dirt and grime..
-realistic airport lighting both for the buildings and runways and taxiways..


-------------
User Aircraft
-------------
Again with this it would be fantastic to add support to the hundreds of products already on the market!!
-Complete, fully functional virtual cockpits...http://www.aerosoft.com/cgi-local/us/iboshop.cgi?showd,,121590
-realistic systems
-Realistic aircraft functionality and behaviour
-camera and effects system ....http://www.flight1.com/products.asp?product=ezdockcam


-------------
AI Aircraft
-------------
-The ability to use the hundreds of multiple LOD models already made for MSFS.. Perhaps with a simple program that can convert them (mdl format) and the CFG and AIR files to work in Outerra...
-A true air traffic control engine that can handle hundreds of aircraft movements at major airports! so they can look like this.. but function properly in Sim!!





     As I stated before, there is a huge market here for you guys at Outerra. Most of us MSFS users are only looking for an excuse to put MS away and move on to something newer and better and the rest of the industry will do the same! I'd also suggest trying to reach out to the community beyond this forum at Avsim.com, Flightsim.com and some of the freeware developers sites like FSdeveloper and AI development sites like Alpha India Group (http://www.alpha-india.net/forums/index.php),  The Fruit Stand ( http://www.the-fruit-stand.com/) and Military AI Works (http://www.militaryaiworks.com/) ... as well as payware developers like PMDG, Aerosoft, Corenado, FlyTampa and UK2000, too name a few...

     Many of these groups have done some incredible work for FS that far exceeds what MSFS intended, from AI flightplans to aircraft, airports and scenery design. There are individuals here that can certainly give incite and ideas as to how Outerra can implement them if you choose too...

     The possibilities are endless and most of us would be willing to pay $100 or more for a Sim that is open source that gives us what you guys certainly can! .... Keep up the great work!!! 


 


Frank


 

 



 
     

 

 

[coanda]

I've read this thread, and I'd like to offer some of my own thoughts.

As a flight simulation user and developer, I'd like to see something like the following for outerra.

A way to integrate a simulation engine into the outerra world.


Notes on that......

I expect that outerra will develop in to a fantastic high fidelity world, and with that will come enough data in the land classes, environment and atmosphere to feed vehicle simulation engines with the appropriate data.  I don't believe that the simulation engines should bring with them their own atmosphere/terrain/land interaction models.  That is a compromise that doesn't need to be made here. 

You do have the opportunity to create a product that can revolutionise and stimulate this market, but it needs to be done in an intelligent and objective manner - the team has already shown it can do this.

I hope that outerra won't get tied in to closed off commercial partnerships for this, since one of my aims is to create a flight simulator.

[cameni]

Well that's what we are doing or attempting. Our goal is to create a high fidelity environment for games and simulators. Truth is, we aren't dedicated fans of any particular simulation domain; what interests us most is the rendering and generation of worlds, using techniques that allow for integration of custom physics and real world data so it's of use to a wide range of applications.

JSBSim has been chosen to showcase the flight sim aspect of it because it was designed as a standalone FDM that could be integrated easily. I agree with you that simulation engines should not bring their own world rendering; usually it's only a secondary interest to the simulator creators who focus on the area of their primary interest - their particular simulation domain, and it shows. For us the world is the primary thing (but then maybe we are obsessed with things that don't matter much to others )

Thus one of our goals is to make a simulation platform and open it to sim devs, even for niche sim areas and indie devs that would otherwise get only poor chances of a good visualization. Once the capabilities of environment rendering mature I'm sure we will see also some profi sims appearing here.

[Steve.Wilson]

And I finally found this thread.  I was deluded into thinking it would be necessary to integrate X-Plane and Outerra, but that is not remotely sensible.  It's time to hang up Blade Element Theory, I guess!  X-Plane is marvelous for developing new aircraft designs, but these designs can then be analyzed and then converted to JSBSim format when their aerodynamics are mature.  At least that's what I'm going to try to do first.

I'm a long time X-Plane adherent, I'll admit, and while I think highly of Outerra, I understand that Laminar wants to do things their own way.  Hence the rejection on X-Plane.org, and a rejection that was echoed by members that knew of Laminar's position as X-Plane 10 was developed.  It became a bit of a dead horse beating.  Unfortunately, XP10 missed the mark in many ways, although it remains to be seen how it will improve when it becomes more mature.  But the world engine, even when completed, isn't going to have the fractal detail level of Outerra when complete.  I guess it depends on whether you want to experience the world or the joys of burying one's head in an IFR cockpit, mired in procedure.  I see Anteworld as a more of an emotional flying experience.  When the SDK is released and we can spool up complex aircraft systems, we can have both.

What do I want in a perfect sim?  The ability to modify EVERYTHING!  And I want the immersion that TrackIR gives me if I can't afford a huge simulator room with dome projection.   Ultimately, I want to feel like I've flown for real -- minus natural temperature extremes and the cost of formal flight training, aircraft rental and aviation fuel!