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[cloudpillow]

You know I was thinking ... the moon doesn't have an atmosphere. It is basically a vacuum and so there is no weather effects to model, no atmospheric scattering, no environmental sound to emulate, and no bodies of water to simulate. The terrain is basically just one color. You don't have to deal with grass, sand, beaches, etc. It also means that there is basically no 'erosion' - which is one of the many challenges that any earth-like procedural terrain engine must face. And no need for roads, infrastructure, or procedural buildings.

Also it means that you don't need to worry about getting the ancillary stuff correct, like say the types and varieties of trees... or the inclusion of rivers, streams, lakes, oceans, caves, volcano, tornadoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.





Why not make a stand-alone "demo" and give us the moon (by itself) for free! This is something you should be able to easily accomplish in like a few hours... The elevation datasets that you would need is already published by NASA. There are some regions (like previous Apollo mission landing sites) that have higher resolution that you could also incorporate, but of course that's optional:


http://webgis.wr.usgs.gov/pigwad/down/moon_dl.htm






The moon is as simple as it gets, and yet it will allow you to demo to the public the -- "3D planetary engine for seamless planet rendering from space down to the surface. Can use arbitrary resolution of elevation data, refining it to centimeter resolution using fractal algorithms.Unlimited visibility, progressive download of data, procedural content generation." -- aspects of your engine!

To save bandwidth you can upload it as a torrent. You wouldn't even need to include or implement any vehicles. Just give the player WASD control and he can hover/fly over the terrain and enjoy the view!

A lot of people around the forums have been waiting for a demo of some sort since the early days of 2010. The ATI bug was a setback yes, but even without the ATI problem had you released an alpha last year it would not have any environmental sound effects, and the water effects were crude, the weather still nonexistence, etc..  I think the release of a free "moon" demo would kill two birds with one stone, it will temporarily appease all those who have patiently waited years to get something they can actually load up on their machines and demo, and it would allow you to showcase the strongest point of your engine without having to get bogged down with everything else like getting the water, lakes, sound effects, trees, weather implemented just the way you want it.

I also play a train simulator/game called RailWorks 2. Like Outerra, RailWorks prides itself on being a development platform for other third party entities to develop and sell the actual trains themselves.  You should do something like what RailWorks did and release a free standalone demo. It could be a summer present to us if you miss the summer deadline, and it would also give us a taste of the core aspect of the engine itself, and keep the community happy and interested, and give everybody an idea of how it runs on different hardware configurations. At the very least it would be a great promotional gimmick, it wouldn't take much time or effort at all, and it would be much appreciated from your core enthusiasts. Who knows, it might even create some buzz (sorry for the pun) from the astronomy, Orbiter Simulator, ProjectApollo, EagleLander, etc crowd and make them drool over your engine.

Just don't postpone releasing something (anything) for too long and end up like Alan Wake.

http://www.nrm.org.uk/scotsmangift





Why Ask For the Moon . . . . . . . .. When we can get the Outerra version for free?

[Abc94]

I think the demo is ready to be released except for the ATI issues (and wanting to release it with the Alpha), although if the Moon is actually not very challanging to add then yeah that would be great to have!    Interplanetary travel (even though it's not a planet) would be icing on the cake for the demo (and Alpha).  

[cameni]

Why not make a stand-alone "demo" and give us the moon (by itself) for free! This is something you should be able to easily accomplish in like a few hours...

You really tend to oversimplify things. Yes, it would have been far easier to make Moon or Mars than Earth, if we started with it. I stated as much in a few places already. Currently the engine doesn't contain generic mechanisms to support these kinds of bodies straight away - making it generic from the beginning would consume more time before it could be released. In no way it would be just a few hours. Moon and Mars will be added after we stabilize Earth.

We are determined to release the demo/alpha ASAP. The only most serious issue we have is with AMD drivers. Yesterday we submitted another report of a bug occurring when rendering objects and 3D trees, that not only crashes the app but also freezes Windows and the card has to be reset. I don't know how it is even possible that we are constantly hitting this when using the new programmable features of the hardware. So now we are facing a dilemma - how to work around it or how to use entirely different approach, since it takes 3 months until the fixes from AMD go public. But we shall solve it somehow.

[C. Shawn Smith]

As Yoda once said: "Patience!  You must learn Patience!"

From the screens, the videos, and everything Cameni and Angrypig have shown us thus far, we already know how immersive and wonderful the engine will ultimately be.  Content aside (which admittedly there is none so far, as Cameni has pointed out) will come in stages, much like Minecraft has done.  Each step of the way, we will be both awed and p**ssed (no doubt) by the direction the developers take, but the good thing about Cameni and Angrypig is that they listen very closely to what everyone on these forums are saying.  I think ultimately this is a good sign, because it's rare in the gaming industry where developers truly listen to their customers.  Granted, a lot of forum-goers in the vast majority of games are the vocal minority who just want to b**ch, but Cameni and Angrypig actually make the effort, because the Outerra community is a lot different in its current state than most other similar sites.

All that being said, I'd much rather wait for a more polished and universally playable alpha/demo than to have one rushed out that would upset a large percentage of the community AND those silent ones who are following it but haven't spoken up.

Outerra has some 490 registered users, the vast majority of which do not post.  I'd estimate a good 10-20x more than that are following Outerra closely, while possibly another 2 or 3x that number are following it as a hobby.  Although Nvidia cards are the mainstream, ATI still has a very large percentage of the population of gamers.  For the ease of math, let's say Outerra has 10,000 followers, maybe 30-40% of which own ATI cards.  Can you imagine the fall-out that would happen if they released an alpha/demo without ATI support?  3-4,000 people suddenly flood these boards and others telling everyone how crappy the engine is.  Even if that's a very judicious population of followers, divide that in half and you still have a PR nightmare for Cameni and Angrypig.  Some will see the forest instead of the trees, but human nature is just the opposite (thus the adage, can't see the forest for the trees).

Let them take their time.  Let them do the things they need to do to both secure funding for continued development (licensing etc) and to satisfy us drooling fanboys.

It will come in time.

At least you have it easy: You're just eagerly awaiting the alpha/demo.  I on the other hand am awaiting Cameni and Angrypig working on a toolset to create customized worlds, which I daresay is still a year or two away (I hope not, but I have no allusions as to how difficult that's going to be).  I'm writing a novel, and want to add a fully customized fantasy world that my readers can experience first-hand.  Even if Outerra delivers that in the next six months (or even tomorrow), it's still going to be an additional year or two before I personally have assets in place for my readers to enjoy.  I'll be in my 50s by the time I get everything I want ... if I survive that long.

I'm willing to gamble on it though.  Just as I will gamble on paying whatever Cameni and Angrypig ultimately charge for the experience.  If I die before it's ready, then no great loss, as I won't be around to worry about it.  If I survive long enough, then it will have paid off.

Give it a few more months, enjoy the screenshots and videos when they come, and dare to dream the dreams dreamers dream, as I once wrote in a poem .  It'll be worth it.

And off topic @Cameni and @Angrypig: WE NEED MORE VIDEOS AND SCREENSHOTS!

[Jak_o_Shadows]

Apart from the logistics that cameni has mentioned, this is a great idea.

[cameni]

And off topic @Cameni and @Angrypig: WE NEED MORE VIDEOS AND SCREENSHOTS!

Yeah, a dummy period of fixing things and implementing background stuff .. but we'll try

[cloudpillow]

As Yoda once said: "Patience!  You must learn Patience!"

Allow me to give you a little bit of anecdotal empirical experience that I have encountered in the past. I do realize that this example may not necessarily be representative of what is occurring in this instance with Outerra's developments.

Back in 2005 the developers of Max Payne I&II awed the world with its next successor "Alan Wake". Graphically it was going to be leaps and bounds better than anything we have seen before (this was pre-Crytek era) It generated the same kind of excitement that Outerra generates today. But the developers could not provide, and quickly burned their good will capital with the community.

Later they were brought by Microsoft and in an effort to pimp out Vista "Alan Wake" had changed from supporting XP to VISTA ONLY. This move was strange since Alan Wake was not even a directx 10 exclusive! There is no reason why it could not support XP, other than the fact that M$FT wanted to pimp out Vista with an exclusive.

They showed many videos and even bragged about how this game was optimized from the ground up to run on Intel's latest quad cores... and explained how each element would run on its own dedicated core.. the physics engine get a core, the graphics got a core, the ai got a core, etc...

Then they went into blackout and we never heard from them until around 2009 when they finally said guess what we are not supporting PCs anymore, this game will be an Xbox360 exclusive... haha funny joke...

And by the time when it was actually released it was over five years old and Crysis had it beat three years ago back in 2007!

So there is definitely a thing as waiting too long.


I personally feel like this ATI bug is a convenient excuse and pretext for the devs to stall as long as possible.  The fact that they have yet to release anything since 2008 debut does not instill any confidence. I have read the forums and the devs have hinted at an "asap" release as far back as late 2009 and early 2010.

ATI bug or not, neither technology nor communities patience waits around forever. Come post-summer if they haven't released either a demo, an alpha, or some sort of moon (which I still insist should take only a couple of hours to implement, after all that is the whole point and purpose of an procedural fractal engine like this in the first place!) then don't be surprised when they pull an "alan wake" on you... I would hate to tell you "I told you so".

[cloudpillow]

Apart from the logistics that cameni has mentioned, this is a great idea.

What logistics?

[cloudpillow]

I'm writing a novel, and want to add a fully customized fantasy world that my readers can experience first-hand.

Hey that sounds a lot like what Shamus is doing over there at twentysided. He is also writing a novel and a fractal procedural terrain engine to go along with the story line:

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=12167

Maybe you can get in touch with him.

[C. Shawn Smith]

Shamus's stuff I've looked into before, but it's nowhere near the realism I want.  Outerra is the closest thing I've run across, and I've done TONS of research on engines that will do it for me.  The biggest reason I'm still here is the fact that the engine is so incredibly detailed, and the fact that Cameni has been more than willing to discuss my goals privately in emails.  Every other developer I contacted never even responded, other than to say "Thanks for liking the engine."  (and in one case, actually banned me from his forums because I dared to even contact him about it)

Personally, I know a great deal of game developers (one of my best friends has worked for the likes of SOE, Microsoft, etc), and I know quite a few game artists as well.  The problem with releasing anything early is the backlash you get, especially if there are bugs.  I speak with these guys all the time about that, and the common denominator in all of these conversations is that games are typically released before they are ready, and are doomed to failure because of it.  That's why World of Warcraft is still so popular ... when it was released, it was almost 90% polished.  A game like Star Wars Galaxies (which I did both alpha and beta) was so buggy upon release that they lost a huge portion of their subscriptions within just six months.  I'd hate to see that happen to Outerra.

Indy developers are in a slightly different boat, but the people that flock to them understand that (enter Minecraft).  Minecraft is essentially a game, but there's no real content other than building stuff.  Woopee!  I can do that in a 3d program all day long.  Once Minecraft goes gold, there will ultimately be enough content to sustain itself as a "real" game.  But the guys who have purchased it (and I'm one of them) understand that, and will wait.  Outerra is in a similar situation.  What will there be to do when the alpha/demo is released?  Fly around in a plane, helicopter, or other aircraft, admiring the scenery, or driving a Tatra type truck across the landscape.  Possibly putting a few roads in, a couple of houses that you can't interact with ... (disclaimer: I'd still love to do that

To release Outerra too soon, without fixing the ATI problems, and without a little more to do, will doom the engine to failure.

You also have to consider the fact that there are basically just two people creating this engine, while most developers have anywhere from between at least five programmers and more likely a dozen or more.  I've been inside a studio developing a game, and got to know each of them very well.  Even with all that manpower, they were almost always behind schedule, and still had to deal with CEOs and company problems (financing, time tables, etc).  The fact that the Outerra team has done what they have in the amount of time they have done it, as well as the fact that they are the owners of the company and don't have to really listen to anyone else, makes them, long-term, more efficient.

I daresay you will see something in the next few months, provided they can get the ATI bugs worked out.  I've been here, I think, almost a year, and I'm amazed at the progress they've made so far, as I'm certain the rest of the forum veterans can attest to.

So be patient.  It will happen.  And it will be more enjoyable having a mostly polished engine, capable of running on a variety of systems, than to have one that's released too soon that only a few can ultimately enjoy.  As of three months ago (possibly more), my system would not have been able to even load the engine, yet I was still salivating over it (I had a very old graphics card that was far below the min specs that Outerra requires).

As far as the logistics, the data sets for the moon and Mars, while impressive, will require a LOT of finesse to work out correctly and make it believable.  It'll be months of labor, if not years, until they get the Earth-based engine appropriately programmed to handle it.  Earth should be their top priority ... after it's more or less perfected, the rest will be much easier to add in over the long haul.

And especially for my plans for the engine    

[cameni]

Um, let me correct some facts there. The 2008 debut? Presumably you mean July 2008 when I started writing a blog over at gamedev.net about a hobby project of ours. Yes, it was a hobby project, and only the progress and the potential that was being uncovered made us focus on it fully in 2010. Let me remind you that the state it's been in 2008 was the result of my previous long work on it, like several years back when I started with fractal terrains on CPU. I didn't publish anything from it, I was pretty satisfied by toying with it for myself, nevertheless it laid the basis for what there is in Outerra now. Will you start pointing Duke Nukem at me now? I think you are comparing different things.

It's only since half-2009 when we were two working on the project, and only hoping that it will make into something. As an independent developer without any backing from a distributor or anything, what would we gain by stalling as long as possible? I don't see the point of this conspiracy theory. It's not like we would be hyping a game and then either release a mediocre version or postpone it because it's not up to the hype. Who would we be deceiving here? We are openly publishing what we achieved so far, we know it would take our tiny team a long time until a polished retailable game was produced so we said we are going to release an alpha in the manner of other indie games out there. That's all.

You talk about the long wait, and certainly you are right about the risks there. But you forgot to weigh in the possible backlash effect. The first encounter often determines if people stay or never come back. I'd rather lose a few impatient people from, let's acknowledge it, a relatively narrow community, than a bunch of players that would come too early because of some hype and then leave when the game is still far from being finished and never come back because of the experience.

We could have waited and not published anything (like many seasoned companies do to avoid these kinds of issues), but honestly, being a self-funded indie team we simply need the feedback to see if we are doing things right and to give us the energy to continue.

The fact is that most of the community doesn't have an idea how long things take and what's the difficulty, and developers on the other hand tend to be overly optimistic despite all their experience. Hopefully the recent experience of successful projects from indie developers will help in both regards.
Recently I've heard a nice statement, that is of some relevance here:
"If you're not ashamed by your first release, you've released too late." -Reid Hoffman

[Jac_Solar]

I really want them to release a demo too, but not at the expense of anything. As stated earlier, most people won't care if it's a "prealpha demo, still very much in progress." - if they are disappointed, they will badmouth it and possibly ruin a very promising product. That's how some people are.

I don't know much (If anything) about coding/programming, but I suspect that it's difficult to release a demo to the masses for an unfinished product as well - especially game engines/software like this.
What features to include, when to release it, and so on..

The creator of a product is probably very proud of his or her work and want as much people as possible to see it and comment on it - fighting this urge is also a challenge I imagine.
And keep in mind, the core Outerrra crew consists of 2 people with help from their communities/friends!

And finally, you can't compare a game to Outerra, on any level really. Outerra is most likely going to help revolutionize game worlds for the future, so there's certainly not any rush to get it "out before it gets dated". This is just a guess from a person who knows nothing about coding though.